How to play any hole at Pine Valley for the expert player

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim , with due respect , are you an expert player?   Plus handicap ,national calibre .  No prob , neither am  I , but have knowledge of them at this place .

Archie,

I don't think 12 handicap qualifies as expert, plus or national calibre, obviously. And, no doubt you have seen more players of various skill levels play the course.

That said, Pine Valley has something in common with many leading or famous courses: while there are some people who play the course many times, the experience of other people is to play it maybe once or twice. (Ernie Ransome's wife once told me that was what made his phone ring so often.)

For the latter group, I think it is fair to say most people want to have at least a decent round. Who wants to play Pebble Beach for the first time and stink up the place? Ditto for Pine Valley, IMO.

So, I was merely pointing out that for a certain handicap level, a strategy of aiming for the middle of fairways and middle or even short of greens may make sense. For example, if faced with a far left pin on #13, I would still say the handicap guy might be best aiming to center or even right of center. Yes, he could then face a three putt - I did - but he might also then eliminate a pull hook and serious trouble on the left.

Another example is #5. Yes, a handicap player might be able to hit the green, but there is so much potential trouble (e.g., to the right), that being even 10-20 yards short isn't a bad leave. Bogey isn't too difficult from that point.

[archie_struthers]

 

Tim , meant no disrespect and your point is so right . However for the purpose of this exercise  I was thinking of expert players only . There  is so much variance in strategy you just can't analyze how to play the holes without segregating by handicap . Having caddied for enough really exceptional players there and watched many more play PV , I was trying to put it out there before I forgot it all . It may be a little presumptious but we have discussed it so many times that I have confidence that it's good advice.   No offense meant at all . 😘

On to holes five thru nine :


5).  Par 3.  250 (+ or -  )    

Such a tough hole and the only one where playing for bogey might be acceptable. Particularly under tournament conditions .  Always wanting to think positive thoughts , let's try to make three.   If you can curve it right to,left , that's the play . Aim at right side of greens md hit it . Make sure you release it because even if you over hook  it , you can make four !  Anything right of the fairway or green brings X into play , even for the expert. The left side bunkers aren't great , but I've seen plenty of threes from there , and four is certainly doable .  The green is pernicious and so,hard to read . Speed under tournament conditions can get really out of control given the slope , so one just needs to strap it on and play hard.  It's super slow  uphill and faster than #2 if you chip it past . Just play hard

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim , meant no disrespect and your point is so right . However for the purpose of this exercise  I was thinking of expert players there is so much strategy for all levels that you just can't analyze how to play the holes without segregating by handicap . Having caddied for enough really exceptional players there and watched many more play PV , I was trying to put it out there before I forgot it all . It may be a little presumptions , but we have discussed it so many times that I have confidence that it's good advice.   No offense meant at all . 😘

On to holes five thru nine :


5).  Par 3.  250 (+ or -  )   

Such a tough hole and the only one where playing for bogey might be acceptable. Particularly under tournament conditions .  Always wanting to think positive thoughts , let's try to make three.   If you can curve it right to,left , that's the play . Aim at right side of greens md hit it . Make sure you release it because even if you over hook  it , you can make four !  Anything right of the fairway or green brings X into play , even for the expert. The left side bunkers aren't great , but I've seen plenty of threes from there , and four is certainly doable .  The green is pernicious and so,hard to read . Speed under tournament conditions can get really out of control given the slope , so one just needs to strap it on and play hard.  It's super slow  uphill and faster than #2 if you chip it past . Just play hard

Archie,

My apologies if the thread was intended for expert level player.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott & Archie,

I don't disagree with trying to drive it down the right side, but I do disagree with being aggressive on the approach if the hole is beyond the mid-point of the green

[archie_struthers]

 

Despite looking quite ferocious , and having two huge expanses of sand and gronkel , holes 6-7 present opportunity to pick up a shot , sometimes two , for the expert.

6).   Tee shot is really key here !  Though  not extraordinailry difficult , the angle over the yawning bunker  and distance control are key . Some players can take it completely over the corner , but this narrows the landing area.  Rather send your tee shot over the middle of the bunker , most likely with three wood , as you can drive it thru if it's firm or downwind .  Ask your looper for the centerline distance and choose your driving weapon accordingly.   Once safely aboard , the green opens up to you  and a birdie is a real possibility . If pin is front to center play your second shot from five to ten yards past the pin , depending on how much you spin it . Aim it right and gravity is once again your friend . If the pin is way back or in the back left corner you need to be a little careful and flight a lower shot into,the center of the green  good hole to,get one .

7).   Par 5'.     600 yards.      
Famous hole with the fabulous Hells Half Acre bisecting its midpoint . From the tips the fairway runs out at 330 yards but given today's ballistics many may choose three wood  here . For the expert HHA doesn't pose the same carry issue as most might think . More importantly they need to think  angle for the third so get the pin sheet out and play it to the opposite side for the best angle on  your third. Shot .  No one goes for the green , so distance control is paramount , figure it out and hit the yardage for your best wedge .

You can pick up 1 maybe two shots here , offsetting the bogeys made on 1-5. Lol

[archie_struthers]

 


.  Par 4.    325 yards .  One of the toughest short par fours I've evr seen .

Here we go , most players would take par or even bogey here before the round starts and breathe a huge sigh of relief .  Maybe more so than even the fifth hole !   I'm from the tom Watson school ( versus the Ben Crenshaw school )  of hitting it all the way to,the end of the fairway and getting a little pitch shot to,the green . Driver is ok , unless you are crooked . Then hit three wood .  I want it all the way down in the flat spot , so spin is negated on the second shot ,

No way to play this hole without cajones as  you need to  be extremely precise on the second shot , there's no faking it here.  This precision is a little odd apart from putting at Pine Valley , so if you need one for,the nerves grab a fortifier as you pass the refreshment stand after hitting the tee shot !

[archie_struthers]

 


9).  Par 4 ,  485


Just a beautiful end to the front nine. This hole and eleven just flow so wonderfully , my favorites aesthetically .  However when you play the tournament pins , and there are many, on the left green it's hard work . You need to hit driver here , the second shot is too difficult with a long iron or rescue but if it's into the wind you might have to hit them . I miss the bail out fairway right that has been replaced with bunkers , as you couLd really just let it go with little fear . The fairway remains huge in th landing area , but it's tighter than twenty years ago .

The second shot would be perfect for Jack Nicklaus , he could sublimate his ego,better than any golfer who ever lived , even with his prodigious skills. The shot requires this mindset .  Aim for the middle of the green and no where else , just dead center. This being said , it's going to test your putting skill even if you succeed .  But that's PINE VALLEY
 

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm back ,


10). Par 3 155.  
      
        One of the most severely bunkered , as per difficulty , in the world.   You must hit green here , easiest par on course for the expert if not greedy .  Hit it to the middle of the green . If pin is back , see previous .  

Birdie hole if pin is forward , hit it to middle and it comes back to pin



11).  Par 4.  390 yards

Beautiful short par four that links to the next hole perfectly. Probably a difficult decision on initial routing but it works well.  Hit three wood or rescue right center and attack the second shot , don't be afraid to hit one extra club here , gently but definitely uphill.


12).   Par 4   330 yards.  

Vastly underrated par four , last  good birdie opportunity for a while .  Hit it to the end of the fairway with three wood or driver . Gets you  a good look at the pin . Need some real skill to hit a little skipper with spin to control distance. Green under tournament conditions firms up quick and definitely your ball can get moving too fast from front to back . Last breather turning for home , but second shot requires max concentration.

[archie_struthers]

 


13).  Par 4.   475 yards

Hogan referred to this  as one the best inland four pars in world . The combination of management and need for power most likely impacted his view.  Huge fairway , begging for you to bomb it down the short way home to the left, but it's a trap .  For experts , Holman's Hollow isn't in play but once you pass it the left side of the fairway is perilous . Any tee shot pulled just a little tends to bounce hard left into what can be an unplayable mess. Hit it too long and right and you are liable to be blocked out and have to curve your second shot from left to right .  Don't hit it far enough off tee and you are left with a long shot in .  I'm ok with the last option . Hit three wood down right center , with a slight draw if possible , and leave a longish second . The green is huge and accepts a shot from 200 yards out .  Make par and get on to 14 .  Beautiful green , huge with big right left front to back roll but you can read this green. It's just a fine , strong hole where greed is not good ,!


14. ).  Par 3 215.      

I'm not a huge fan architecturally of the new tees that play so long to this island green , but they sure made a tough shot tougher .  It's almost impossible for anyone to judge the wind here, and it's almost always switrling in this far corner of the property . Must be the same deal at Rae's Creek.  
Not much strategy here , it's do or die .  Short of hoping you hit second or third here because someone birdied 13 , I can't help much here if you hit first .  To this day I have not met anyone who can figure the breeze here , despite some caddies that claim to have this talent . Trust me they don't   !   your looper needs to Do his best to figure the yardage its playing, but secretly  we are guessing at the wind.  !  Gotta stay with your player here , stay close and don't leave him alone ,and cross your fingers and toes when he hits! Lol

 Now if you hit it second , we're in business . once you see the first shot you can get a feel for the wind and judge distance accordingly. it's the single most important shot to watch I've ever seen as a golfer or caddy .  

Once on the green , we're good , fast back to front but eminently puttable.


15). Par 5.    600 yards.  

Still in awe that guys sometimes reach this one in two , but it's freakish and not in the equation.  Despite being a long hole the second shot is a bit of a lay-up for the expert so you don't need driver here. If you are driving it well, hit it , if not three wood  or rescue is fine .  I don't ever remember Jay Sigel hitting driver here in tournament play , he rifled his ping beryllium one iron about 240 down the middle every time .

Once in fairway get a good yardage to put you in a flat spot that exists left center and approx 150-160 out . Caddies are good they know where it is .  That's the spot to leave for your third. Right is no good for a couple reasons. It kicks hard towards the the over hanging trees heavy rough that tends to be a little wet due to the shade of aforementioned arboles . The lie from the right side of the  fairway is hanging and promotes a cut on your third.  In that any shot  with cut spin may back off this green, left side in the flat spot is it.  On the rare occasion that the pin is forward here , short is perfect. ,  It usually isn't there because the slope is so severe.  

Green big and beautiful and very tough to putt , work with your looper on the speed and read it yourself. Make sure you walk behind the hole and feel the speed with your eyes and feet , it's really difficult to judge .   You think a 600 yard uphill hole is tough right , this green is tougher . It's so much like the second hole and just wicked tough .  Play hard and feel the speed.

[Chris Roselle]

11).  Par 4.  390 yards

Beautiful short par four that just links the to the next hole perfectly. Probably a difficult decision on initial routing but it works well.  Hit three wood or rescue right center and attack the second shot , don't be afraid to hit one extra club here , gently but definitely uphill.

Archie, I will definitely take your advice the next time I am lucky enough to play PV because #11 eats my lunch every single time.  I live in the left rough on that hole and don't think I've made par there in forever...Thanks

[Michael Felton]

I got to play Pine Valley with my dad back in the late 90s. Your review of #15 brings back some good memories. He likes to say he reduced that hole to three 5 woods and a 7 iron. He wound up about 35 feet away above the hole and the caddie pointed to a spot 6 feet from his ball and perpendicular to where the hole was. He said "hit the putt like the hole is here". My dad did so and after quite some time, the ball dropped in the middle of the cup. Caddie earned his tip right there.

[archie_struthers]

  


Andrew B asked me if I've ever seen the pin on the front on 15. Given the slope it's almost an impossibly . However ,

It happened at least once in  what could be dubbed "Bator's Revenge , the infamous Crump Qualifier of 1982 (checking date).  

Going to try to remember the pins if possible . That day PVGC was the hardest golf course with literally no rough I have ever seen . The superintendent ,Dick Bator , had the course absolutely ready to destroy the field . The course won that day , as I believe Jay Sigel and Harcourt Kemp may have been the only players to break 80!  

Bator had seethed for almost a year since Bob Lewis had shattered the tournament record with a 64 , he got revenge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

.  Par 4.    325 yards .  One of the toughest short par fours I've evr seen .

Here we go , most players would take par or even bogey here before the round starts and breathe a huge sigh of relief .  Maybe more so than even the fifth hole !   I'm from the tom Watson school ( versus the Ben Crenshaw school )  of hitting it all the way to,the end of the fairway and getting a little pitch shot to,the green . Driver is ok , unless you are crooked . Then hit three wood .  I want it all the way down in the flat spot , so spin is negated on the second shot ,

Archie,

Years ago, Jay Segal offered me that advice, stating that laying back left you with a downhill lie and that driving to the end of the fairway left you with a slight uphill lie, resulting in an exponentially easier shot.

No way to play this hole without cajones as  you need to  be extremely precise on the second shot , there's no faking it here.  This precision is a little odd apart from putting at Pine Valley , so if you need one for,the nerves grab a fortifier as you pass the refreshment stand after hitting the tee shot !

The required precision on the approach is easier to achieve from 30-50 yards than it is from 80-120 yards.

Here's where I think playing aggressive improves your chances

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Pat , who do you think Jay conferred with about this strategy In 1977.      Lol

Ok turning for home

16).  Par 4   475

Probably the most inviting tee shot on the golf course , plenty of room to rip driver down the right center .  Being down the right side sets you up better for your second, as it leaves the ball slightly below your feet and sets up just perfect to hit a little fade into green . It also opens up the sight line to the front left corner , which is accessible from the right side of the fairway.

The toughest pin is back , whether it be left or right . The breaks back there are greatly influenced by the big hill behind the green. Another typical PVGC , huge with fabulous contours .  Read it yourself , always then confer with your looper

17).  Great chance for birdie late in the round .  Depending on wind , a rescue or three wood leaves you with a short second, The second shot plays longer than the yardage , as its uphill .  When you hit your tee shot on 11 take a peek over and check out the pin . Seeing it will give you a better visual later .  

There is a great story about Rocky Carbone ( caddy )  discussing the second shot here (hint ,  it's blind and Rocky is short! )

18).   Big fairway with plenty of room , just aim it left . Seems the wind is always blowing a little left to right here and the fairway kicks that way too . So aim it left and hit it .  The second shot isn't killer , it's just hard to get the ball close to the  pin for a couple reasons. First is the green is severely canted front to back in the first third of the green , and slopes left to right. Most of the time you have a cut lie on the fairway which exacerbates the left to,right slope on the second.  Also because the free is so elevated most shots come in a little flatter than normal and tend to run out . Unless the pin is middle back its hard to get. your distance control right , thus you tend to,get some lengthy putts .  Once again , slow uphill , very fast downhill is the norm .  Fairly easy par unless you are getting a little nervous , which is easy  to be in a qualifier or stroke play finisher .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hey Pat , who you think Jay conferred with about this strategy In 1977.      Lol

Archie,

It's a good strategy and I'm glad that I finally found out who the true author of the strategy was.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I'd like to hear more about your take on the tee shot on # 11.

Also, I agree about # 14, I think it's too hard, especially if there's any wind.

[Will Lozier]

The required precision on the approach is easier to achieve from 30-50 yards than it is from 80-120 yards.

Patrick,

That is a statement I hear very rarely about any golf course - let alone a course considered to be the ultimate in penal architecture - given that a full wedge is generally an easier shot to control for all but the best players.  Having never played PV, can you tell me why this is and, what other great holes you find this to be true.

Cheers

[JESII]

The two factors that have always kept me from hitting driver are the chances of the ball stopping on the last downslope and my tendency to move the ball to the right...ending up with a 50 yard shot  right and short of the green never seemed better than 90 yards with a straight on view and shot.

That said, I've never felt like I had the hole figured out but never struggled too bad.


Archie...looking forward to getting into this a little deeper. On the surface, I notice you change gears a couple times through the round. Thinking/playing aggressive then conservative on, what for me are, counter intuitive holes.

Why not hit driver up to the end of the second fairway?

[JESII]

Now I get it...you hit the ball right to left, yes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The required precision on the approach is easier to achieve from 30-50 yards than it is from 80-120 yards.

Patrick,

That is a statement I hear very rarely about any golf course - let alone a course considered to be the ultimate in penal architecture - given that a full wedge is generally an easier shot to control for all but the best players. 

Having never played PV, can you tell me why this is and, what other great holes you find this to be true.

Will,

Sure, from 80-120 yards you're playing off a downhill/sidehill lie that falls away from you to a very, very narrow and small green that's at an awkward angle versus a shot that's 50 to 70 yards closer, off an uphill lie.

In addition, I'm hitting a lob wedge, choked down, full.

Given the choice, it's a no brainer.

As to other holes where the shorter shot is the shot of choice,  I've ALWAYS Prefered a 30-50 yard shot with my Ping L-Wedge versus a shot from 80-120 yards.

Cheers

[archie_struthers]

Jim Sully ,  I'm pretty clear that whatever club you hit the best is the one to,use on #2.  You just have to put it in the fairway . It's akin to  the second serve in tennis. When I  was an assistant there and got half decent for a few years don't think I  hit anything other than my ping 1 iron .  I typically hit that club right to left then but hit the driver left to right .

This summer in the Senior Member Guest I hit driver every time as I was hitting it fairly straight . I'm not sure there is much of an advantage hitting wedge or nine into this green. Might even prefer a 7 or 8  iron which won't spin off the front as easy . Thinking 150 to the pin is just about perfect , leaving you a shot that will take a little skip and settle.

As to # 8, if you hit the driver solid you actually have an uphill pitch shot to the green , which you can be pretty aggressive with . It's easy to spin a full sand or lob wedge back off the green iOn my way! full shot . . With the pitch you can play it into the front slope without worrying about this . If , as Jim feared , you push driver right , it is a tough shot but not that much more difficult than off the hanging lie or side hill/ uphill you get center  fairway from 75-100 out .

[JESII]

How bout the fact that 8 was built 100 years ago, measures about 315, has no water, a fairway about 65 yards wide and could legitimately be played with about 6 clubs off the tee and the best players in the world would take a 4 any time...


Regarding #2, no doubt! Over spin has never been my problem.

[Will Lozier]

As to other holes where the shorter shot is the shot of choice,  I've ALWAYS Prefered a 30-50 yard shot with my Ping L-Wedge versus a shot from 80-120 yards. [/color]

Cheers

Even off the fescue at Bandon or Streamsong, or on the great links of the UK?!?  Or are you referring simply to those situations at Pine Valley?  What type of grass is in Pine Valley's fairways and what types of lies does it produce on average in terms of the ball sitting up?

[archie_struthers]

Will, the fairways at Pine Valley are a mix of poa and bent , depending on time of year one predominates. Oakmont's are the best poa mix fairways I've evr seen , but Pine Valleys are exceptionally healthy as a rule and tend to be tight if not real firm like some links courses. The ball sits up quite well there and it's easy to clip it with your short irons. The result is you have to watch how you nip it or it can come ripping back . One of the nuances of the place is that spin can help you or hurt you depending on your application.  😉

[Tim_Weiman]

Will, the fairways at Pine Valley are a mix of poa and bent , depending on time of year one predominates. Oakmont's are the best poa mix fairways I've evr seen , but Pine Valleys are exceptionally healthy as a rule and tend to be tight if not real firm like some links courses. The ball sits up quite well there and it's easy to clip it with your short irons. The result is you have to watch how you nip it or it can come ripping back . One of the nuances of the place is that spin can help you or hurt you depending on your application.  😉

Archie,

Yep. John Zimmers does a damn good job over in Pittsburg.