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bill_k

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2003, 09:29:52 AM »
I have played CC of Charleston several times and have yet to pick out many of the standard Macdonald/Raynor features. It has been at least two years since I played there, but I have no recollection of any holes/greens that bear any resemblance to the road hole concept other than having a bunker front left. I suspect the par three third might have been an eden hole and the next par 3 on the front nine(not sure if it is the 5th or 6th) might have been a biarritz -or not. The front nine does contain a wonderful short par 4 with a maiden green similar to #11 at Yeamans Hall(either #7 or #8) and #17 at Chicago GC. As for the back nine, the only holes that really scream Macdonald/Raynor are the reverse redan 11th and short 17th. No alps, leven,bottle, road, biarritz, double plateau, prize dogleg, or cape hole(or green)-that I recall, anyway. I understand that CCC was damaged severly by hurricane Hugo in 1989-and anyone who has played there will be struck by what a lousy piece of land Raynor was given to work with -compared to Yeamans Hall across town. On the other hand, I wonder how much of Raynor's work there has been preserved-I never saw Yeamans Hall before Doak and Jim Urbina's restoration work but I wonder if it bore any resemblance to today's CCC.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2003, 09:42:16 AM »

George,

There is no real evidence of a Road Hole at The Old White at the Greenbrier.  As part of our research we determined that there was a Road Hole replica on Raynors Course (where the Meadows Course is now) but that was destroyed after the war when they built the bunker.  As you know, The Old White does have a Redan, Biarritz, Short, Eden, Alps, Cape, Plateau, Narrows, Long and others, but sorrily no Road Hole.  

Only the 11th and 17th show any characteristics in their routing, however, both have very flat, unduanting greens and bunkers.  

Lester

david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2003, 10:35:48 AM »
Even though RTJ changed the course a great deal, I don't think Elkridge ever had a "road hole"...hopefully Silva can bring Elkridge back

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2003, 11:33:50 AM »
Cannot clearly identify a road hole at Camargo. Possibles are #s 6, 10, and 18. Or 17, since that was originally designed as a par 4 (now a shortish 5.) Noe that I think about it, that's probably the best guess if there ever was a road hole designed for Camargo.

I don't recall former pro. Dick Plummer or any references to the club mentioning a road hole, though they do recognise redan, biarritz, and alps.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2003, 11:36:54 AM »
George -- I knew Lido never had a Road hole, but the way you phrased your question I thought you were only covering "current" L.I. courses.

The Road bunker on the 8th at Piping Rock is a more formidable example than on other courses, partly because we "restored" it pretty aggressively in '85.

B. Crosby:  We have completed the reconstruction of the Mid Ocean greens this summer -- the last six should be back in play shortly.  We made some fairly subtle changes on 4, 8 and 16 so that there will still be some chance to keep a downhill putt on those greens with the new strain of Bermuda.  We have not made ANY changes to the bunkering at Mid Ocean as this has not been part of our mandate -- sand costing $100 per ton in Bermuda makes them less enthusiastic about bunker work than most other clubs!

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2003, 01:04:22 PM »
How about road holes on Devereaux Emmett courses

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2003, 01:12:29 PM »
Tom -

Thanks for the update.

If sand is expensive in Bermuda, do they also charge extra for palm trees, wire grass and volcanic rock? ::)

Bob

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2003, 05:57:44 PM »
Lester: Old White: Your right, no Road hole on Old White but I think there was one on the (NLE) Greenbrier course - believe it was hole 7.

dcarroll - Elkridge: I have an 1930's aerial of Elkridge that shows a couple of green complexes in their original form that “show” Road hole. One green is now the 9th.

The other hole is no longer there. It was where the open space is now between holes 15 & 16 and the 18th hole. In that area were two holes and one of them, which would now be adjacent to the 18th, looks
like the Road hole, for sure.

I haven’t been there for a while.

jesplusone: and. ........ Camargo’s Road hole is 17th - a really good one in itz original form

Note: one of the most literal versions of a Road hole green I’ve seen is at the North Shore CC on “Lung” Island - some even pronounce that:    Lun-guy’-lund  :P   ;D  !!

The Dye/Doak/Spear version at Piping Rock really plays great

It’s funny a lot of these look good on paper but do not play that good.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2003, 06:31:25 PM »
Would it be wrong to make a Raynor road hole bunker deeper than Raynor made it originally ?

The only one that I have actually seen is not as deep or as intimidating as the St. Andrews bunker. When I realized that it was a road hole, I was actually disappointed.

Someone stated in this thread that perhaps Raynor was sensitive to the wishes of the committee when he built a road hole bunker shallower than the model.

I think this is important to consider because the Road Hole concept is such a wonderful but simple model.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2003, 07:33:38 PM »
Bradley Anderson,

I believe that the road hole bunkers at # 8 at Piping Rock and
# 7 at NGLA are deeper then the road hole bunker at # 17 at
TOC.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2003, 09:21:27 PM »
Patrick: those two bunkers at NGLA and PR were deeper years ago than they are today.

Sort of reminds me of when I first played Harbour Town,  perhaps 18 - 20 years ago when there was an incredible pot bunker Pete had behind the great par-3,14th green. That bunker got shallower and shallower and they finally made the green a lot larger (and really wrecked one of the great par-3's) - they did the same to the 15th green there, made it larger that is. Those 4  par-3's at HT were about as good as it gets in their original form - no one ever talks about the par-3, 4th - that darn thing is very touch to shoot at.

Bradley, I don't think it makes any difference if you made one of Raynor's, or any one elses, bunker deeper than they once may have been. It is the strategy that is important.

Some of the Road hole bunkers, or their representations, built by these three architects were nothing like St. Andrews, NGLA or Piping Rock Road hole pots - some were plain out stupid-looking - but again you must consider what the clubs wanted.

Blind Brook was a good example. They told Raynor, thru Macdonald, that they did not want a killer test of golf for their every day course - they could go to NGLA for that if they wanted one.

Interesting also is the same was told to Banks when he built The Knoll - "we're older (30 millionaire founders), we don't want hill-climbing and want a more moderate test." These founders were mostly from Montclair GC (hilly), Essex County CC (hilly) and a couple were from Balturol (J R Monroe - Monroe Business Machines & Thomas Watson, founder of IBM).  In the 20 years after the millionaires "lost" the course because many were broke after the Great Depression, the course was owned by the Aiello Bros for nearly 30-years and they are the ones that actually lengthened a number of holes to make them the more "killer" par-4's many of them are today. They did a great job of it, too. I plan on adding a number of back tee to help put some of the original architecture back into the course (not that it is very easy now).

Matt Ward (the Bomber) will love this one: a new tee on 18 to make the hole at least 25-yards longer to put the teeth back into that fearsome hole. Also a new rear tees on 8 (a tough driving hole now), probably 9, a great new tee on 11, at a slightly different angle, probably add a little to the tough 14th, and my favorite: adding about 40 yards to the 15th, a tee directly behind 14-green which will really put all the original bunkers in the first and second landing areas back into the ballgame (and as they should be, repected but leaving a way to play around them ......  Banks did a good job at The Knoll.

The original lenghth of the 18th at the Knoll, for those who know the hole, was about a hair over 380 and about the 4th handicap hole on the back side. They made it one of the great finisheing holes in the Met area (along with the great 18th hole Banks built at Knollwood in NY - that's a really good hole!!)

.......  lots of room behind the Biarritz 13th at The Knoll though - hah - but it plays 247 from the tips now so I guess we can't do anything there - that, guys, was the original and only tee-box on that hole. Most Biarritz holes were built with a single tee, usually averaging 225-235 from the middle of the tee.  Fishers Island one of the shortest of Biarrtiz's.

The Aeillo Bros. added two forwad tees to the Knoll's Biarritz - no one could get to the green back in the 20's, 30's etc - and even today, break out the "Big-Dog" from the back tee.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2003, 10:47:44 PM »
George Bahto,

I played a lot of golf at The Knoll starting in Junior High School.  I always had a love of the place.  I remember the old clubhouse, practice putting green and first tee.

Are you going to restore all of the bunkers that have been taken out over all the years ?

Friends of mine recently raved about the work you did at Essex County East, another favorite of mine.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2003, 11:00:56 PM »
Patrick: I'm hoping the funding will allow putting back the, basically inconsequential, bunkers that were taken out over the year. I'm sure I can make it "happen" the way I'd like to see it done.  Three of these were those 180-yard-off-the-tee-on-the-rightside-of-the-fairway everyone seemed to have removed in the middle years because they were the first that did not come into play anymore. Fortunately, all they did was fill in the bunkers with dirt, so when it dries out they are easily ID'd.

Two bunkers added over the years will be removed.

The Knoll is really as original as can be - so I'm sort of doing a bit of delicate surgery there so as not to disturb any berms, bunker cops and such ......  

please read: NO FOOTPRINTS!!!!

- fortunately none of the greens have ever been lost of changed

The millionaires spent over 2 mil on that course and clubhouse in 1928-20
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

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