Re: Seminole Architectural Redux

[David_Elvins]

Greg,

   When you've annoyed, aggravated, pestered, threatened to sue, abused access, used people and throughly disgusted as many otherwise classy GCA'ers as Jay has...well you get the point.

Yeah, but he's played Seminole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why not wait and see what Jay has to say about Seminole, it's architecture and how it plays, before jumping a all over him.

[Keith OHalloran]

Patrick, I think the problem lies in the need for the thread. A quick search of "Seminole" on this site reveals 40 pages of threads. Two of the threads on the first page were started by you in 2002 and 2007. One asks if Seminole has the greatest green sites in golf, and one explores the genius of the routing. Having said that, I am not optimistic that someone who has played the course once needs to start his own thread, or has a great chance of adding something new that you did not get to in your threads.

[Rob Marshall]

not a frost delay, just their way of telling me...

Sounds a lot like when a friend of mine played there as a unaccompanied guest. I can't remember how he got out but they weren't allowed to use the practice range. He said the course was great but he never felt so unwelcome an any club he's ever played at before.

[JR Potts]

Why not wait and see what Jay has to say about Seminole, it's architecture and how it plays, before jumping a all over him.

The only things Jay cares about when writing is promoting Jay and talking about Jay.  I've already read way too much about Jay.  I'll pass this one up and seek more reliable and informed information on Seminole, Streamsong and Old Memorial elsewhere.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,

The "unaccompanied" guest policy doesn't exist at many clubs, especially the iconic clubs, hence Seminole's extending of unaccompanied guest privileges should be appreciated and applauded.

Many clubs have rejected "unaccompanied" guest policies because of unpleasant experiences.

Some clubs don't want non-members hanging around all day.

Hence, as a compromise, clubs permit unaccompanied guests with the understanding that they arrive, either hit a few balls and/or putts and tee off.   Lunch is often included.

Sometimes, how unaccompanied guests conduct themselves determines the amount of latitude they're granted.

[Steve Lapper]

Why not wait and see what Jay has to say about Seminole, it's architecture and how it plays, before jumping a all over him.

The only things Jay cares about when writing is promoting Jay and talking about Jay.  I've already read way too much about Jay.  I'll pass this one up and seek more reliable and informed information on Seminole, Streamsong and Old Memorial elsewhere.

Don't forget trolling for quotes, information and education.....another speciality.

One thing is true. No one here will learn anything new (that can't be properly refrenced from 20+ past Seminole threads) from Flemma...other than, of course, how he hacked his way around. Frankly, I'd wager he's hardly realized what he was looking at on any given top 100 course unless spoon-fed advice from others fortunate enough to have played there.

[JC Jones]

not a frost delay, just their way of telling me...

Sounds a lot like when a friend of mine played there as a unaccompanied guest. I can't remember how he got out but they weren't allowed to use the practice range. He said the course was great but he never felt so unwelcome an any club he's ever played at before.

I call BS.  I've never been treated more graciously and welcomed at any club as I was when I visited Seminole unaccompanied. 

[Keith OHalloran]

not a frost delay, just their way of telling me...

Sounds a lot like when a friend of mine played there as a unaccompanied guest. I can't remember how he got out but they weren't allowed to use the practice range. He said the course was great but he never felt so unwelcome an any club he's ever played at before.

I call BS.  I've never been treated more graciously and welcomed at any club as I was when I visited Seminole unaccompanied. 

As Pat Mucci stated, often how a guest is treated is a result of how he conducts himself.  Anyone that know you knows that you are always the model of good behavior, so your experience makes sense.

[Peter Pallotta]

It may have helped that JC entered the club house, bowed graciously, held his hand to his heart and proclaimed "You, sirs, enjoy a lifestyle to which I most devoutly hope to become accustomed. To you, I say: most well earned, sirs -- nay, most well deserved !"

That could have helped.

Peter

[Rob Marshall]

not a frost delay, just their way of telling me...

Sounds a lot like when a friend of mine played there as a unaccompanied guest. I can't remember how he got out but they weren't allowed to use the practice range. He said the course was great but he never felt so unwelcome an any club he's ever played at before.

I call BS.  I've never been treated more graciously and welcomed at any club as I was when I visited Seminole unaccompanied. 

You can call BS all you want. I'm just telling you what was relayed to me by my friend. He's been around clubs his whole life and is one of the most unpretentious people I've ever met. I've never heard anyone say a bad word about him. It could very well have been a misunderstanding but being told you can't use the range when it's open wouldn't make me feel very welcome either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,

How long ago did that happen ?

[Jeff Taylor]

"Patrick, I think the problem lies in the need for the thread. A quick search of "Seminole" on this site reveals 40 pages of threads. Two of the threads on the first page were started by you in 2002 and 2007."
Given Ran's request for a heightened standard in the posting of threads and if subjects once visited disqualifies subsequent posts, let's shut it down. Here is to the need assessors. 

[Mac Plumart]

I'll also add that I was treated amazingly well as an unaccompanied guest at Seminole.

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,

How long ago did that happen ?

Time fly's Pat, It was at least 5 years ago. I could call him and ask if you thought it was important.

[JR Potts]

It's so appropriate that the author of this thread is now going back weeks later and substantially editing its content to put himself in a better light.  Just what would be expected.

Like many on here correctly pointed out, this thread was never about the architecture, it was always about Jay, the self-titled and self-appointed "young Grantland Rice".  He likey though.

https://twitter.com/JayGolfUSA

[Mike Schott]

"Patrick, I think the problem lies in the need for the thread. A quick search of "Seminole" on this site reveals 40 pages of threads. Two of the threads on the first page were started by you in 2002 and 2007."
Given Ran's request for a heightened standard in the posting of threads and if subjects once visited disqualifies subsequent posts, let's shut it down. Here is to the need assessors. 

I don't recall the specifics of Ran's post but as far as what Jay actually has to say about Seminole it's to a very high standard and is of great interest.

While I love this site and have great appreciation for being invited by Ran to join due to interest in golf architecture, and the phenomenal knowledge of the experts who post here. there's a feeling among many of the members that it's their own little club. This can be annoying as hell. The negativity towards Jay in this thread for simply posting a detailed review of his Seminole experience is exactly the problem. I don't care a whit if Jay has annoyed some in the past. I think we can say this about many who post here. This forum is about golf course architecture and any post as detailed as this should be praised and not condemned.

As far as posting about a course that has detailed analysis, if we hold to that standard, Ran can close the site.

[Jeff Taylor]

I was questioning the criticism of the thread. Your last sentence makes my point.

[Mike Schott]

I was questioning the criticism of the thread. Your last sentence makes my point.

Thanks Jeff. I misread the meaning of your post and had a need to vent. I should not have directed this at you but those who we commonly address.

[RJ_Daley]

Nicely stated Mr. Schott.  

The level of cyber-bullying and stalking by a clique of folks in "the other camp" of this long running feud is deplorable.  JR Potts, you seem obsessed with your mission to save us all from the devices and abuses you attribute to Jay.  Here are a few thoughts:  We are for the most part all grown adults perfectly capable of forming our own opinions of the value and motives of others we encounter here through these GCA pages and in-person encounters.  We all take away varied points of view based on those experiences.  I don't know if you ever had a real in-person experience with Jay, or if you are just following the standard gossipy schoolyard process that characterizes these sort of clique-bullying behaviors where calumny and detraction are the weapons of abuse.  I know some of the regrettable history between Jay and another esteemed participant on this site.  And regrettable it was.  But, I don't see the additive value in your crusade along with the predictable others of that other clique to obsessively stalk Jay across every post he makes.  I mean; do you actually need to post the 'twitter' feed to make a nebulous point?  I see double standards here applied to Jay of astounding proportions.  If you can't say something good or even just neutral, or just valid critique on the specific posts on the subject matter of a person; why say anything at all?  Criticism is one thing.  We all write things and are subject to being called out for incorrect comments or faulty opinions on golf course architecture and related subjects.  That seems fair enough.  And, I think it was probably fair when we recently had a saga long and strongly worded warning thread involving exposure of a fraudulent historical memorabilia objects (ironically the fraud exposed by one of the folks that has taken up this current more gossipy detraction campaign against Jay in this thread).  

But gentlemen, give this schoolyard cyber-bullying, stalking, and useless criticism a rest.  It is really the worst thing about GCA.com.

[John Mayhugh]

I don't recall the specifics of Ran's post but as far as what Jay actually has to say about Seminole it's to a very high standard and is of great interest.

The negativity towards Jay in this thread for simply posting a detailed review of his Seminole experience is exactly the problem. This forum is about golf course architecture and any post as detailed as this should be praised and not condemned.

Mike,

I don't know you.  I don't know Jay.  I think that we should be discussing the content of what has been posted rather than the motivations or character of the poster.

As for the quality of the information posted, are we reading the same thread?  Here's what Jay had to say about the golf course:

I am looking forward to the strategies on the par-4s the most.  Holes like 6 and 12 for example.
They called Seminole the best walk on the Eastern Seaboard and one of the best in the whole country.  They remarked that they felt the routing was one of Ross's strongest - they way he guided you around the property was like a story they said.  They specifically told me to "look to the east when you're on the fourth green.  It's one of the best in all of golf."
"Everywhere you wan to hit the ball...that's where Ross put a bunker."

My favorite aspect of the course was the long ridge across the property atop which several greens are perched, the par-4s at two and 11 for example.  I also particularly enjoyed the stretch from 4-7. 

Overall thoughts, briefly:  Such marvelous shaping, angles on approaches, and perfect greens! And yes, the overall experience was stately, refined, graceful, and camaraderous.

Of the above, the lines in bold are Jay's observations after having seen the course.  Your praise for this as "detailed" and "to a high standard" seems incongruous with what I've read.  What am I missing?

[Steve Lapper]

RJ,

  You are way off here. See your PMs.


Cheers,

Steve

[Mike Schott]

I don't recall the specifics of Ran's post but as far as what Jay actually has to say about Seminole it's to a very high standard and is of great interest.

The negativity towards Jay in this thread for simply posting a detailed review of his Seminole experience is exactly the problem. This forum is about golf course architecture and any post as detailed as this should be praised and not condemned.

Mike,

I don't know you.  I don't know Jay.  I think that we should be discussing the content of what has been posted rather than the motivations or character of the poster.

As for the quality of the information posted, are we reading the same thread?  Here's what Jay had to say about the golf course:

I am looking forward to the strategies on the par-4s the most.  Holes like 6 and 12 for example.
They called Seminole the best walk on the Eastern Seaboard and one of the best in the whole country.  They remarked that they felt the routing was one of Ross's strongest - they way he guided you around the property was like a story they said.  They specifically told me to "look to the east when you're on the fourth green.  It's one of the best in all of golf."
"Everywhere you wan to hit the ball...that's where Ross put a bunker."

My favorite aspect of the course was the long ridge across the property atop which several greens are perched, the par-4s at two and 11 for example.  I also particularly enjoyed the stretch from 4-7. 

Overall thoughts, briefly:  Such marvelous shaping, angles on approaches, and perfect greens! And yes, the overall experience was stately, refined, graceful, and camaraderous.

Of the above, the lines in bold are Jay's observations after having seen the course.  Your praise for this as "detailed" and "to a high standard" seems incongruous with what I've read.  What am I missing?

What difference does it make? I am not as knowledgeable as most here and I find his post interesting. Your post is exactly the kind I refer to above. To me it comes off as snobbish and condescending.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - you seem like a very decent fellow, but I think you're missing something here, i.e. what the hell is the point of golf course architecture if not to encourage feelings of snobbishness and condescension! I mean, where's the fun in discussing a bump in the grass or a hole in the ground if Coore & Crenshaw weren't the ones who found them? And what's the point in bogeying a short Par 4 if Tom D didn't design it, and if you didn't have to pay $6000 to play it? You see what I mean? And then, even if you did find a C&C bump or an easy (but far flung) Tom D gem, it would only feel truly special if most of the others on this board hadn't. Frankly, I'm surprised that I have to explain this all to you, i.e. the very basis and foundation of what gca is all about. (Are you sure that Ran let you in here? You didn't get here under an assumed name, did you?) Good god, man -- next you'll be telling me that you enjoy playing public courses that no one has ever heard of!!

Peter

[Eric Smith]

what the hell is the point of golf course architecture if not to encourage feelings of snobbishness and condescension!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v99PnBY56ko&feature=youtu.be&t=4s