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Tommy Williamsen

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Country Club of Asheville
« on: January 12, 2015, 06:48:15 PM »
McConnell Golf recently purchased the club. Know anything about the Donald Ross course?  McConnell is looking to spend a bunch on renovating the course. He has a pretty good track record so I am curious to see what he does.  
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 09:47:58 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt MacIver

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 07:13:08 PM »
Heard that. I played it last summer and very much liked it.  Good elevation changes and some fun angles.  Lots of good driving holes. I don't recall the greens having tons of movement but there was some interest in the surrounds. I can't imagine they will spend much money on materially altering the course vs adding some irrigation and upgrading the clubhouse.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 07:30:35 PM »
Having grown up on the course and spending nearly every summer there for the past 25 years, I adore the course.

Ross build a wonderful mountain course and a near perfect country club course. For a club that was one of the first 100 in the country its sad to see they were forced to sell but I think it will be for the betterment of the club. They were seemingly too resistive to change, even though the community was changing around them.

Originally built as the Beaver Lake Golf Club, the Country Club of Asheville purchase the property in the mid 70's. The only hole that gets literary recognition is the 16th, which Ross wrote about in Golf Has Never Failed Me. the 16th is a 650+ yard par five, that when build forced the player to cross the same creek 3 times. Today its nearly unreachable for even the longest hitters and that requires a near perfect and lucky drive over a large stand of trees. Ron Forse was brought in a half decade back to consult on the course and since then they have expanded the greens back to their near original size, re-faced all of the bunkers, and removed a number of trees.

I don't foresee McConnell putting much money into the course as the clubhouse is where much of it is needed. Originally built in the 70s and then expanded in the mid 90's the clubhouse is to large for the current memberships needs and rather dated in its facilities.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 08:03:21 PM »
Interesting.  I've played it a number of times -- last time two years ago, when it was in excellent condition.  Frankly, I'm not sure what you could do to the golf course, as others have said.  It's a very good mountain style course (with some low holes that can get pretty wet), in my opinion.  It was redone for the better not all that long ago.  If anything, shorter tees on some holes.  There are some very tough, long uphill holes, that are no fun for the recreational golfer.  I can say nothing about the clubhouse, and what it might need.  I'd heard they were having financial problems, so this doesn't surprise me.  Biltmore Forest is THE, somewhat exclusive, private club in Asheville, and then there's the Grove Park Inn course (both also Ross) for those that want the upscale or private-like experience, so I guess Asheville CC was the odd man out. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 08:04:54 PM »
For a club that was one of the first 100 in the country ...

Ben:

Can you give me a little more info on this?  Did the club predate the construction of the course?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 08:16:54 PM »
For a club that was one of the first 100 in the country ...

Ben:

Can you give me a little more info on this?  Did the club predate the construction of the course?

Sven

Sven,

We've discussed in the Willie Parks' thread that  the Country club of Asheville previously played on the course currently owned by the Grove Park Inn. Before that, the club was founded as the Swannanoa Country Club in 1894 and has been recognized by the USGA as one of the first 100 clubs in the country. As I recall that certificate is hanging in the clubhouse, down the hall from the pro shop.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 12:41:17 AM »
For a club that was one of the first 100 in the country ...

Ben:

Can you give me a little more info on this?  Did the club predate the construction of the course?

Sven

Sven,

We've discussed in the Willie Parks' thread that  the Country club of Asheville previously played on the course currently owned by the Grove Park Inn. Before that, the club was founded as the Swannanoa Country Club in 1894 and has been recognized by the USGA as one of the first 100 clubs in the country. As I recall that certificate is hanging in the clubhouse, down the hall from the pro shop.

Ben:

I think you're confusing the CC of Asheville and Asheville CC.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matt MacIver

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 06:36:24 AM »
It's complicated but I think they are one in the same. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 07:44:50 AM »
By the way thanks for not pointing put my spelling error.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 08:15:58 AM »
For a club that was one of the first 100 in the country ...

Ben:

Can you give me a little more info on this?  Did the club predate the construction of the course?

Sven

Sven,

We've discussed in the Willie Parks' thread that  the Country club of Asheville previously played on the course currently owned by the Grove Park Inn. Before that, the club was founded as the Swannanoa Country Club in 1894 and has been recognized by the USGA as one of the first 100 clubs in the country. As I recall that certificate is hanging in the clubhouse, down the hall from the pro shop.

Ben:

I think you're confusing the CC of Asheville and Asheville CC.

Sven

Sven,

I'll try to make this as clear as I can, but the Country Club of Asheville and Asheville Country Club are one in the same, as is Swannanoa Country Club.

In 1894 the Swannanoa Country Club was founded with two facilities, the in town club and the hunt club, located in Malvern Hills. It was on this site in Malvern Hills that the first golf holes were constructed.

In 1896, due to the success and interest of play over a rudimentary course located at the hunt club, Swannanoa Country Club changed their name to Swannanoa Golf & Country Club

In 1899 The club decided that they did not have enough space at the hunt club and they moved to a plot of land off of Charlotte Street, where a new 18 hole course was constructed over the next 10 years.

In 1905, due to their location on the outskirts of town, the club changed their name from the Swannanoa Golf & Country Club to Asheville Country Club.

in 1944 the name Asheville Country Club was dissolved and was replaced with Country Club of Asheville.

In 1976 The Country Club of Asheville sold it's golf course and facilities to the Grove Park Inn. The club used the money from the sale to purchase Beaver Lake Golf Course, located just a few miles down the road.

Since 1976 the club built a new club house in the location originally planned by Ross. Before the sale to McConnell, there were no changed to the location or operation of the Country Club of Asheville following the "big switch".


If that does not clear up the history of this club and its name(s) please let me know.

Ben
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 08:18:04 AM by Ben Hollerbach »

Carl Johnson

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 08:51:02 AM »
For a club that was one of the first 100 in the country ...

Ben:

Can you give me a little more info on this?  Did the club predate the construction of the course?

Sven



. . . in 1944 the name Asheville Country Club was dissolved and was replaced with Country Club of Asheville. . . .

Ben

Ben, do you know the details of why and how this dissolution and replacement was carried out?  Just curious.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 10:00:13 AM »

Ben, do you know the details of why and how this dissolution and replacement was carried out?  Just curious.

I'm not entirely sure, what I've been told is it was tax/organizational re-classification that lead to the name change. I believe technically Asheville Country Club Inc was dissolved and the assets were acquired by the newly formed Country Club of Asheville, where both parties were one in the same.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 10:07:54 AM »
So did Ross design the current CCofA course, which if I am reading correctly was formerly Beaver Lake GC?

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 10:48:00 AM »
Speaking more about the course. From an elevated clubhouse you play the first 3 holes down hill to the low part of the property, much of the front nine plays through a low valley with a creek that comes into play on 4 holes. Following the seventh, you begin to play your way into another valley that contains much of the back 9. From the 11th green to the 15th green you are playing nearly always up hill, covering 120' of elevation. The front 9 is your scoring nine and while the 18th can be a benign closer, the 4 preceding hole really act as a crescendo to the course.

Holes of note:

The 2nd is a half par 4/5 that plays slightly downhill, from tee to green. A diagonal ridge divides the driving zone which is flanked by two bunkers. the stronger driver can challenge the left hand side of the ridge in an attempt to place their ball on the top level, but will be left with a poor angle into the green for their second. The player that takes their drive down the right will be faced with a longer second, but both an easier shot if trying to hit the green or laying up.

The 6th is a version of the Ross "short". A par 3 of less than 130 yards to a large elevated green surround on 3 sides by bunkers and a fall off in the back. The holes utilizes split tees and with a typical cross wind, makes hitting the green quite a challenge.

The 9th and 12th are similar short, uphill, par 4's that can be played a multitude of ways but require good execution on all shots to score well. The 9th fairway plays through a serpentine valley where off of the tee the player must decide if they want to play to the low part of the valley, leaving a shorter but blind approach; or to the top of the valley, which allows them to see the flagstick but also forces them to hit a longer club from possibly an un-level lie. The 12th fairway is divided by a very large ridge. Most players will play short of the ridge, giving themselves an approach shot of 140 yards from level ground to a blind green. If your try and drive your ball on top of the ridge you can give yourself a much easier pitch into the green, but a mis-positioned tee ball could find the out of bounds down the right, or a difficult shot from the left rough up and over a large oak tree to the green.

The par 5 16th plays at more than 650 yards from the back tees. Originally the hole was played crossing a creek 3 times but the creek crossing short of the green has been buried for as long as I've known the course. The tee shot is greatly down hill, dropping some 40 or 50 feet, but the first fairway runs out at about 260 yards from the tee. Long hitters typically choose to lay up off of the tee as reaching the green in 2 is nearly impossible. One can gamble and try to play their driver over the trees on the left, in an attempt to hit the second fairway, but even then you're left with a second shot of 250-270 yards to the green. The second fairway is raised above the first and an layup shot played too far to the right has the risk of rolling down towards the creek. Even if it does not reach it, you are left with an awkward short approach. The green sits below the second fairway and is protected by a very deep bunker on the left hand side. many players play the ball beyond the flag to avoid the bunker.

The par 3 17th is a fantastic par 3 and one that I believe is worth future discussion. A hole of nearly 200 yards, the tee shot is played over a ravine to a narrow green cut into the side of a large hill. The green is guarded on the right by 2 bunkers that sit 5 or 6 feet above the level of the green. A miss to the left is bound to roll 30 or 40 yards down the hill, leaving the player a nearly impossible up and down for par. Often you don't play for the pin but rather just to hit the green.

For the most part CCA plays very wide, with multiple fairways being cut greater than 50 yards, which creates a course that is playable for nearly everyone.  At only 6600 yards the course does a fantastic job of holding its own against the low handicap players. Due to the elevation changes and topography most often there are specific locations on the large fairways where approach shots need to be struck. While the greens do not possess a tremendous amount of undulation they do have quite a bit of nuance in them and when paired with the sever surrounding landscape often trick players into miss reading their slope.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 10:48:50 AM »
So did Ross design the current CCofA course, which if I am reading correctly was formerly Beaver Lake GC?

Yes, He completed the course in 1928.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 10:49:30 AM »
Ben, thanks for the history.  The club website was more confusing than helpful.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 07:36:08 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sven Nilsen

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 10:52:50 AM »
Ben:

Thanks for laying it out.  I was not aware of the name change in the 1940's, and with all of the course/name changes over the years its pretty hard to follow.

The following article (from the Jan. 1909 edition of Golf Magazine) seems to suggest that there is a bit of a gap between Swannanoa CC closing shop and Asheville CC being formed.  Is there evidence that this was not the case?



Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Pritchett

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 11:03:54 AM »
So did Ross design the current CCofA course, which if I am reading correctly was formerly Beaver Lake GC?

Yes, He completed the course in 1928.

Thanks for clarifying Ben.


Carl Johnson

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Re: Country Club of Ashville
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 03:30:08 PM »

Ben, do you know the details of why and how this dissolution and replacement was carried out?  Just curious.

I'm not entirely sure, what I've been told is it was tax/organizational re-classification that lead to the name change. I believe technically Asheville Country Club Inc was dissolved and the assets were acquired by the newly formed Country Club of Asheville, where both parties were one in the same.

Thanks.  Right now CCA is a nonprofit, so maybe Asheville Country Club, Inc. had been organized as a for-profit corporation, and they decided to change its status to nonprofit, and went through the change for that reason.  That would make sense to me.

Carl Johnson

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2015, 06:14:22 PM »
Just notified that my club (Ross course) in Charlotte no longer has reciprocals with CC of Asheville due to the change in ownership at CC of Asheville.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2015, 10:31:07 AM »
Ben:

Thanks for laying it out.  I was not aware of the name change in the 1940's, and with all of the course/name changes over the years its pretty hard to follow.

The following article (from the Jan. 1909 edition of Golf Magazine) seems to suggest that there is a bit of a gap between Swannanoa CC closing shop and Asheville CC being formed.  Is there evidence that this was not the case?



Sven



Sven,

Do you have more contest that goes along with this article portion? I've heard a version of what the article is describing but my understanding is it all took place 6 or 7 years prior. The lease ran out on the Malvern Hills location and the club moved to a plot of land off of Charlotte St. in 1899-1900. This would lead to a gap in time between the old course being closed and the new course being available for play.

The article states that the new course was partially build on top of the old course, which would imply the Charlotte St. land. It would seem then that when the club moved from Malvern Hills they leased the new plot of land for a term of 7 years? That seems a bit strange, if they were leaving a previously leased plot that they had outgrown why would they lease the next plot for such a short period of time? At the time the Swannanoa Country Club still had an in town club house, so if they were forced to vacate the course the club didn't fold.

Like many old clubs, records from this long ago are not readily available. After the clubhouse fire in the early 20's and then the move in the 70's much of the older history of CCA has been the culmination of old members recollection.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2015, 10:35:06 AM »
Just notified that my club (Ross course) in Charlotte no longer has reciprocals with CC of Asheville due to the change in ownership at CC of Asheville.

Thats too bad,

The US Hickory Open was played at CCA last summer and after nearly universal praise was initially scheduled to return this summer, but the ownership change has precluded the return visit. They are still using an image from the USHO on the club's homepage though.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2015, 11:00:43 AM »
Ben:

I have not found anything else that discusses the transition from Swannanoa to Asheville CC.  This article certainly makes it sounds like they were separate clubs.  To confound the issue, the Annual Guides for 1916 and 1917 give a date of 1907 for the organization of the club, but the later guides note 1894.  Its almost like a new club was formed, and then years later they acted as if it had been one club all along.

One other item to note.  The club didn't have 18 holes until around 1911/1912, which is when Barker was involved.  All of the early maps of the course only note 9 holes.

Feb. 1899 Golf Magazine -



Dec. 1904 Golfers Magazine -



Jan. 1906 Golfers Magazine (seemingly a reprint of the 1904 map) -



Here's the 18 hole stick routing that is believed to show Barker's course.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2015, 11:54:38 AM »
Ben:

I have not found anything else that discusses the transition from Swannanoa to Asheville CC.  This article certainly makes it sounds like they were separate clubs.  To confound the issue, the Annual Guides for 1916 and 1917 give a date of 1907 for the organization of the club, but the later guides note 1894.  Its almost like a new club was formed, and then years later they acted as if it had been one club all along.

One other item to note.  The club didn't have 18 holes until around 1911/1912, which is when Barker was involved.  All of the early maps of the course only note 9 holes.



I want to say the first routing is the original configuration of the Malvern Hills course, but i'm not sure.


Within the booklet "Battery Park Hotel", supposedly  printed 1896, the course is described.


This description matches the early routing of the course found at the Charlotte St. site.

The booklet "The Manor - Albermarle Park", printed after 1902, also contains a description and stick routing.



The final routing you posted is from 1912.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: RCountry Club of Asheville
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2015, 01:26:01 PM »
Ben:

That 1896 date for the Battery Park Hotel booklet is dubious.  The hole descriptions match the 1902 version of the course you posted much better than the 1899 routing.

As for the Barker routing, when it was first posted on this site Tom MacWood indicated he wasn't exactly sure of the date (it was taken from a Southern Railroad brochure).  Do you have information that pins down the 1912 timing?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross