Are there any golf courses aided by the cart?

[Carl Rogers]

If Tom D is not offended, then Riverfront is, as there is a lot of distance between greens and tees, across roads and through the development.  The cart speeds up play.

Ballyhack because of the severity of the site.

Almost all Mike Strantz courses, because of routing - proximity challenges.

[mike_beene]

Does lipstick aid a pig?

[Jim Sherma]

Mike - that is too harsh. I know where Carl is going with Ballyhack. The land is not really suited for a course that lends itself to easy or even really reasonable walking. Without carts this course would likely not have been built on that site. It is a really cool course and the golf world, IMO, is better for it having been built.

Another way to ask the question is whether or not courses built on land that does not lend itself to a walking friendly routing add something meaningful to the pantheon of golf architecture?

[J_ Crisham]

Does lipstick aid a pig?

Wow! Rivermont is not only enjoyable but a very good test of golf. It's just a tough piece of property to route a course on. I believe Joe Lee? did the original work in the 1960's . I played the renovation a couple years ago and thought it was pretty solid- certainly top 10 in Atlanta. The question is : would you rather have a course that a cart is necessary to play or no course at all? I personally have walked every round that I played last year but when I was at Alotian in 2013 we had to ride- it was what it was. Still had a great time on a very good course that is being maligned IMO on another thread. Different strokes for different folks.

[Bill_McBride]

Did I miss something?   How did Rivermont (very solid walkable routing) get in this conversation?

[J_ Crisham]

Did I miss something?   How did Rivermont (very solid walkable routing) get in this conversation?

  Small type on my phone made Riverfront look like Rivermont- oops

[J_ Crisham]

Bill,  I'm not sure players walk at Rivermont very frequently. I stick with my premise that if a few courses around the country require carts due to the difficulty of the site , so be it. We would all love to walk and have tees right next to greens but that isn't how it always works. If you have to suck it up a couple times a year and ride, oh well.

[Keith OHalloran]

J_Crisham,
To be honest, Rivermont fits everything you said as well. It is not I possible to walk, but the trip from 9 to 10 is rough on foot, and there are some parts of the back that get tiring. IMO, Rivermont is really good, and there are times when a cart enhance my experience.

[mike_beene]

Courses that are not walkable erode the game.When you ride golf loses its fitness element.When that goes people eventually quit the game in my opinion.If you need to put a shuttle out for a few holes OK. A true cart only course should not be built in my opinion and I say detracts from the game.If you need a cart for health reasons that is OK.If the course demands it I don't have to play,but you send the wrong message.I don't bowl either.

[Tim Martin]

It's been a tough weekend for fat guys and carts.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,  I'm not sure players walk at Rivermont very frequently. I stick with my premise that if a few courses around the country require carts due to the difficulty of the site , so be it. We would all love to walk and have tees right next to greens but that isn't how it always works. If you have to suck it up a couple times a year and ride, oh well.

As a fat azz# I walked Rivermont very comfortably. 

Cheers
Bill

[Mike_Young]

The county next to where I live just voted in alcohol sales.  At least 10 major restaurants have decided to build there since that happened.  The alcohol has nothing to do with how good the food is but it has everything to do with whether that restaurant can stay in business.  I don't have to drink there but enough do to make it work.  The same goes for golf courses and carts.  Eliminate the cart in American golf and it's over.  I'm not saying I like it but the INDUSTRY has forced it.

[mike_beene]

Mike, I am not saying eliminate the cart. I am saying that courses built to require the cart are (and I am struggling with this phrasing)not real golf courses but close enough to being golf courses that they contribute to the very issue you raise of carts now being necessary for industry survival.Certainly North American heat and attitudes contribute as well. I believe there are more people at courses where riding predominates that would walk if they weren't pressurred ,peer or otherwise , to ride. Unwalkable golf courses prevent this option.And they add to the pressure that you are supposed to play golf from a cart. Look at how difficult it has been to get push carts back into the regular rotation.

[Matt_Cohn]

Doesn't Kapalua have some holes that wouldn't be possible (or maybe the whole course wouldn't be possible) without a cart?

[cary lichtenstein]

I live in southern Florida. If you eliminate the golf cart, the actual death of the golf industry would closely follow.

[Sean_A]

There is some room for cart golf, but that in no way implies that courses should be designed with cart usage in mind unless the land is so severe or disjointed that there is no other option...this is the issue I have with carts.  Are archies not bothering to think of the walking first and foremost...which is what should happen if the site allows. That said, we all have the choice to either pay the green fee or play somewhere else.  One course which I really love is Tobacco Road, but I never want to be roped into walking that again...its not enjoyable at all.  I would also play the Cashen at Ballybunion again if I ride...the routing is nuts with its up and down and walks, but there are a lot of cool shots to be had.  Usually I avoid cart golf, but once in a while for the right course its not an issue. 

Ciao   

[JReese]

Matt - yes, Kapalua is essentially unwalkable.  When inquiring about walking the pro shop told me they highly recommend taking a cart.  I've heard that they may offer some sort of cart transfer between a few greens and tees but not 100% sure if that is accurate.

[C. Sturges]

The course that came to my mind is Lost Canyon.  This ties in well with cart ball top 100 courses, or at least old one.  In my mind this course should not of been built, it just is not very good.  With it, we asked if we could walk and got laughed out of the golf shop.  After playing the first four holes we understood why.  At the time they were very proud of there course and the fact they had some how made it in the top 100.

More courses like that and golf is over, but is that really golf I would ever want to play again, No!
chris

[David Stamm]

I would say Maderas in San Diego. A good (not great) course that is unwalkable, but provides some solid holes in a city that has a dearth of interesting courses.

[BCrosby]

Mike Young and Cary are right. The golf cart is here to stay, like it or not. And with carts come cart paths.

Cart paths pose two architectural challenges. You either try to hide them or you try to find find interesting ways to incorporate them into designs. The latter challenge is rarely taken on.

That is a failure of the architectural imagination. One of the best holes in the world has a road that runs along the back of the green. Indeed, one of the weaknesses of the CBM/Raynor replicas is that they don't have an actual road running along the back of the green.

Fame and fortune await the young architect who figures this out. If cart paths are here to stay (and they are), let's figure out a way to deal with them that is about more than just keeping them out of sight.

Bob 

[Russ Arbuthnot]

I disagree that carts are "here to stay", especially because the industry mandates them. The industry can be changed if attitudes change.

Regarding the architecture, architects and course owners should be thinking of alternative means of players getting from point A to B if walking is impractical. Does everyone on the ski slope get their own snowmobile to go back up the mountain? Of course not!

[JMEvensky]

I disagree that carts are "here to stay", especially because the industry mandates them. The industry can be changed if attitudes change.

Regarding the architecture, architects and course owners should be thinking of alternative means of players getting from point A to B if walking is impractical. Does everyone on the ski slope get their own snowmobile to go back up the mountain? Of course not!

Just like Bob Crosby and Mike Young,I'm in the Deep South. If you tried to mandate walking only on any golf course around here,you could lock the Pro Shop during July and August. That's not an opinion. I'm unaware of any club foolhardy enough to try--we all know better.

Each of us can curse carts until the cows come home but it's not going to change a thing. For a very significant percentage of people who play--nae carts,nae golf.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

And northern clubs don't close their doors for several (sometimes more) months in the winter?

[Josh Tarble]

I think carts are great in certain situations.  No doubt they have allowed several good courses to be built on land that would otherwise be unsuitable for golf.  Carts probably increase the enjoyment at several places like Ballyhack, Pete Dye GC, etc.  They also allow many people that couldn't walk to still enjoy the game.

What I think is poor, is when architects ignore basic architectural principles because of the carts.  When every tee is perched up high above the fairway, when holes are created as such to facilitate cart paths, unnecessarily long transitions and many other "short cuts".  Those are things that make up poor golf courses, not golf carts.  Golf carts are just a facilitator for not doing things properly, but as many have stated there is a place for carts in the game.

[JMEvensky]

And northern clubs don't close their doors for several (sometimes more) months in the winter?

I'm struggling to see the analogue. Is your suggestion Southern clubs only open the golf course when temperatures allow walking only? You're perilouly close to BCowan logic. Ignoring realities serves no purpose whatsoever.

I'll make it simple--name 5 walking only clubs,open year round, where July/August temperatures are normally mid 90's and above.