Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses

[Mike Hendren]

Why not?  Caveat: I have played neither Augusta National nor Merion but have spent multiple days on site viewing major championships.  All others I have played.  Don't sweat the criteria.  The main criterion is how excited would I be when I went to bed the night before playing each course.

The First 20:

1   Augusta National
2   Merion
3   Shinnecock Hills
4   Pebble Beach
5   Cypress Point
6   NGLA
7   Crystal Downs
8   Sand Hills
9   Ballyneal
10   San Francisco
11   Bandon Trails
12   Pacific Dunes
13   TPC Sawgrass
14   Old Macdonald
15   Peachtree
16   Plainfield
17   Whistling Straits
18   Pasatiempo
19   Chambers Bay
20   Honors

What surprises you and why?
Also, shall I continue?

I am hoping to learn from your honest disagreement so fire away.  I'll respond to questions periodically rather than clutter with individual responses.  

"I'm out there Jerry and I'm lovin' it."
-Cosmo Kramer

[Peter Pallotta]

Excellent!

First, please do continue with this, Bogey. (As I wrote on a GD raters thread, I am always grateful to get the views of individual posters who have played more golf and know more about gca than I do; it's the collective opinion and statistically-driven conventional wisdom that I have no interest in.)   

Second, at least at the very top of your list you clearly favour the old classics over the modern ones. I'll be curious to see if this continues throughout the rest of your list.

I'm pleased to see Ballyneal so high up in the list, and 2nd only to Sand Hills in the modern-category. (If God-willing we're around in 30 or 40 years, I have convinced myself that we'll all see Ballyneal topping most such lists.)

I find charming and interesting your 14-16 stretch: OM, Peachtree and Plainfield demonstrate quite catholic tastes.

Peter

[noonan]

Why is Sawgrass listed so high?

Blasphemous that Pine Valley is not in the top 20.

[Mark Pritchett]

Bogey,

Keep them coming, I am interested to see how your list plays out.  I think we have similar tastes in architecture.

Mark

[Zack Molnar]

Interesting that the two courses you have not played are tops. Do you think having seen the courses under championship conditions, which watching the best players in the world play them influenced your thinking? Or the fact that you have no played them makes you more excited to play them when you got the chance to?

[John Blain]

Surprised to see Bandon Trails ahead of both Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald. You don't see that too ofen

[Ronald Montesano]

Interesting that the two courses you have not played are tops. Do you think having seen the courses under championship conditions, which watching the best players in the world play them influenced your thinking? Or the fact that you have no played them makes you more excited to play them when you got the chance to?

I spent three days at NGLA for the 2013 Walker Cup and believe you me, Zack, I walked and walked and walked. I tried to photograph every nuance and I know it in a way that I wouldn't have, if I had merely played it. Without knowing Michael's response, I would confirm that seeing top-shelf golfers play a course in a proper (and sometimes improper) way is a boon to one's understanding and estimation of a layout.

I did the same at Merion in 2009 and was able to play the East course twice in 2014. What I had seen at the Walker Cup then, stood me well when I played over those golfing grounds.

If ever afforded the opportunity to play NGLA (or Merion), a golfer who has seen it previously would be the "more excited" that you suggest. Nicely posed questions.

[Mike Hendren]

Jerry, Sawgrass is perhaps my biggest outlier (we'll see).  I think it is ingenious.  Surprisingly lay of the land on land that didn't exist.  Well bunkered in a variety of ways.  Stunning and effective micro land features, particularly greenside.  Very sporty from the correct tees yet stout enough to challenge/pucker the game's best.  Perhaps as many as 9 half-par holes when played from the appropriate tees.  Above all, it's so cool.

Zach, I have the unfortunate benefit of having been a low single-digit, a low double-digit and if I don't lose some weight a soon-to-be high digit handicapper.  I've also been fortunate enough to see the game's best on numerous occasions.  I don't know much, but I do think I understand the game and how it is played.  Those factors give me some comfort in assessing a course I've seen but haven't played.  That, and the fact that I wasn't required to spoil a good walk and/or suffer the indignity of picking up!
 
The next 20:


21   Bandon Dunes
22   Homestead
23   Pine Needles
24   Fenway
25   Kingsley Club
26   Victoria National
27   Palmetto
28   Holston Hills
29   Streamsong Blue
30   Streamsong Red
31   Glens Falls
32   CC of Troy
33   Ballyhack
34   Spyglass Hill
35   WW-Pine Barrens
36   Desert Forest
37   Prairie Club - Dunes
38   Erin Hills
39   Teugega
40   Cuscowilla

[Josh Tarble]

Bogey,
You have been fortunate to see some great courses!  I love seeing Sawgrass so high on your list.  I really enjoy the course and, like you, think its rather playable from the right tees.  It reaffirms where I have it placed on my own personal list.

Also no real comment, other than interesting to see Kingsley and Vic National next to each other on your list.  Any comments on Vic?

[mike_beene]

I appreciate your high ranking of Pine Needles. It is in my top 20 and I often think I must have missed something in my several visits there. I usually don't like real estate layouts but I think of it as often as any of my very favorite courses.

[Mike Hendren]

Josh, good question regarding Victoria National.  Heck, I surprised myself with that one - it's not my cup of tea.  It's a manly course that doesn't suffer fools but is not too demanding/restrictive off the tee if a player knows his limitations and can think accordingly.  The routing somehow makes sense - no small feat on that unusual site.  A surprisingly good walk with some of the best green to tee transitions I can recall.  

Bogey

[Peter Pallotta]

Fascinating, Bogey. As with some of Sean's lists of UK courses, it's very good to read one golfer's wholly personal and subjective list of the courses he most enjoys (no more and no less than that).  What is coming through already is a sense that you are providing not a ranking of architecture (whatever that means) but of experiences. That the fairly 'modest' (for lack of a better word) Pine Needles comes ahead of the 'drama' of Kingsley or the Streamsongs is striking.

Peter

[Mike Hendren]

Peter, it's not my intent to come across that way.  I hope to be giving architecture the highest priority.  Alas, your conclusion is likely spot on, as usual.

Cheers,

Bogey

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I hope you know that no criticism was intended, far from it. For me, your ranking/analysis (as I saw it) is as it should be -- because to me the architecture is a subset of the experience, the former one objective element of the latter i.e. the larger and subjective whole. That we can all have different notions about the relative importance of that one objective element in terms of the total experience doesn't change the fact that it is indeed just one element.

Peter

[Mike Hendren]

What the heck - 40 through 60 (expecting to get a little roughed up here):

41   Idle Hour
42   Augusta CC
43   Blue Mound
44   Lawsonia Links
45   Grandfather Mountain
46   Mid Pines
47   Shoal Creek
48   Kinloch
49   French Lick - Hill
50   Hyde Park
51   Mountain Ridge
52   Beverly
53   Chechesee Creek
54   Talking Stick North
55   Lehigh
56   Olde Farm
57   Wild Horse
58   Yahnundasis
59   Forsgate
60   Omaha

[Bruce Wellmon]

Bogey,
          Is CCC ranked #53 because we got our butts kicked there at Dixie Cup?

[Jim Tang]

Bogey -

I'm enjoying your rankings.  Thanks for sharing.  Can you provide some thoughts on Prairie Club - Dunes?  I've not played it. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Glad to see Ballyhack finally get the love it deserves from the raters!

I set aside that battle when I realized just how polarizing the course can be.  For all the passionate adoration it justly receives, I get that it's simply too much for some to handle / accept, and know that their ratings will lower an overall average.  But I did find it interesting that another person rates Ballyhack ahead of Kinloch (wasn't just me). 

I really enjoyed your stretch from 31-33 (Glens Falls, Troy, Ballyhack) - talk about your Elevation Whore dream trio.  GF was one of my favorite discoveries of 2014, as was CC Troy in 2013.  I had the sense that GF was a brawnier version of Troy. 

[Nigel Islam]

What the heck - 40 through 60 (expecting to get a little roughed up here):

41   Idle Hour
42   Augusta CC
43   Blue Mound
44   Lawsonia Links
45   Grandfather Mountain
46   Mid Pines
47   Shoal Creek
48   Kinloch
49   French Lick - Hill
50   Hyde Park
51   Mountain Ridge
52   Beverly
53   Chechesee Creek
54   Talking Stick North
55   Lehigh
56   Olde Farm
57   Wild Horse
58   Yahnundasis
59   Forsgate
60   Omaha

Now your talking! I have Blue Mound, Idle Hour, and French Lick Ross all high up on my much inferior list. Of course I have all three ahead of Victoria National which I have played quite a few times. Maybe I'm a sucker for good routings because all three of those courses are routed pretty well.

[Andy Troeger]

Surprised to see Bandon Trails ahead of both Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald. You don't see that too ofen

That's how I have them as well. Trails and Pac Dunes are close together, and Old Mac is a distant third though. I find a strong correlation between whether people love Ballyneal and Old Mac or are less warm on both. I think both are top 100 courses, but I don't have them as high as most here do.

I'm also a big fan of Sawgrass, Victoria National, Homestead, and Peachtree, so I'm glad to see those placed pretty high.

About the only two that I have far lower are Talking Stick North and Erin Hills.

[noonan]

I as well enjoy your lists!

[Phil McDade]

I spent three days at NGLA for the 2013 Walker Cup and believe you me, Zack, I walked and walked and walked. I tried to photograph every nuance and I know it in a way that I wouldn't have, if I had merely played it. Without knowing Michael's response, I would confirm that seeing top-shelf golfers play a course in a proper (and sometimes improper) way is a boon to one's understanding and estimation of a layout.

A sentiment I agree with wholeheartedly, and one often mis-understood here on GCA, where playing a course is often viewed as the sole authoritative way to assess a golf course.

[Bart Bradley]

Mike

Won't make homer arguments but two courses jump out.   Idle  Hour is good, but you have it above some very good courses. Prairie Club Dunes seems under-rated to me.  Can you discuss those two?  

Bart

[Kevin Lynch]

From your Upstate NY Visit, I saw you ranked them:

Glens Falls - 31
CC Troy - 32
Teugega - 39
Yahnundasis - 58

Was curious why you had Teugega that far ahead of Yahnundasis.  I probably would have reversed the two, but just wanted your general impressions of Yahny.

Perhaps you were giving credit for the potential of the underlying design (seeing past the tree clutter at Teugega), and I would probably do the same with Yahnundasis' love of rough around the greens, which neutered many of the cool chipping areas designed by Travis.  They'd be very well served to take a trip down the Thruway to see the restored presentation at CC of Troy.

While not part of the design on the ground, I enjoyed studying the evolution and changes to the Yahnundasis routing over the years (precipitated by the construction of the Turnpike and evolution of the golf ball).

[Jud_T]

Others who have Whistling Straits, Bandon Dunes and Pine Needles above Kingsley, this is your chance to come out of the closet without upsetting your parents too much...