Dogs on the golf course

[Adrian_Stiff]

In the 40 years I have been golfing, the number of people taking dogs out has dwindled to almost no one. We have talked a few times about allowing dogs not allowing dogs, not many owners want to bring them because the dogs can intake dangerous chemicals through their paws, so a good thorough washing after is important. The point that it offends others is the probably the main reason, some people feel uneasy around dogs or get allergies, my sister in law would have about three days ruined if one came near her.

I suppose it's a bit like when people used to smoke big cigars and stink the place out, they just never thought of the (sub-harm) to others at the time.

Kept on a leash, after a certain time are perhaps all compromises.

Personally I like dogs.

[PCCraig]

Pat,

It is an irrefutable fact that many dogs of certain breeds (Lab/Golden Retrievers) are fundamentally allergic to grass (as well as wheat and even chicken.) This is not the case with all dogs or all breeds.

For me, and for my yellow lab, I choose to not take her onto 150+ acres of grass that has been treated regularly with chemicals that have been linked to cancer. (How many of you lick your golf balls on the green? You may have 20 years ago, but probably not today.)

If I lived in the UK, I might feel differently. But I live - as you know - in Chicago and am fortunate to have my dog cared for by one of the best vets in the Midwest who is a published author and respected expert in canine nutrition and health.

So, I can listen to:

A)Chris Strange and Steve Okula - surely accomplished green keepers in North Dakota and France. But I dont detect any animal medicine education....or

B) Dr. Barb Royal, DVM  - renowned vet and published author: http://www.royaltreatmentveterinarycenter.com/dr-barbara-royal/bio/

Hmmm...wait a minute, let me think....I'm going with "B", Pat.

Funny thing, Barb does play golf. But, if we ever have a question about agronomy, I will defer to Steve and Chris and let the canine medical questions be addressed by a licensed vet.

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks, Ian.

[Ben Lovett]

One of the things which annoys me the most is scaremongering! If we listened to everybody including most industry professionals we would spend our lives sitting in bubbles!
There are numerous golf course personal who happily have dogs on the facility and I am one of them. Admittedly I keep my chemical spraying to an absolute minimum much to some people's chargrin!
Most of the vets I know are very happy that my dog has the luxury of a golf course to run around!
I must admit a personal website with dog yoga, camel acupuncture and rabbit therapy sessions did give me moment of thought!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Admittedly I keep my chemical spraying to an absolute minimum much to some people's chargrin!

Ben, that's great to hear but your quote above says a lot.

"Scaremongering" may annoy you, but facts tend to ground me. Chemicals may be scarce at your course in...where..?...Turkey? That's great for you and how you manage your course. Even better for your dog and membership.

Like I said (now for the 3rd time), if I lived in the UK or elsewhere where chemicals are not as omnipresent, then I might approach this from a different perspective.

Oh, and the den of coyotes between our second and third hole also gives me another reason to leave my dog at home! Then again, if I loved in North Dakota, I might have a shotgun in my golf bag!!

[Steve Okula]

Pat,

It is an irrefutable fact that many dogs of certain breeds (Lab/Golden Retrievers) are fundamentally allergic to grass (as well as wheat and even chicken.) This is not the case with all dogs or all breeds.

For me, and for my yellow lab, I choose to not take her onto 150+ acres of grass that has been treated regularly with chemicals that have been linked to cancer. (How many of you lick your golf balls on the green? You may have 20 years ago, but probably not today.)

If I lived in the UK, I might feel differently. But I live - as you know - in Chicago and am fortunate to have my dog cared for by one of the best vets in the Midwest who is a published author and respected expert in canine nutrition and health.

So, I can listen to:

A)Chris Strange and Steve Okula - surely accomplished green keepers in North Dakota and France. But I dont detect any animal medicine education....or

B) Dr. Barb Royal, DVM  - renowned vet and published author: http://www.royaltreatmentveterinarycenter.com/dr-barbara-royal/bio/

Hmmm...wait a minute, let me think....I'm going with "B", Pat.

Funny thing, Barb does play golf. But, if we ever have a question about agronomy, I will defer to Steve and Chris and let the canine medical questions be addressed by a licensed vet.

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks, Ian.

I followed the link and get a bio of Dr. Royal, but I don't find anything about dogs on golf courses. Though I do find it fascinating that, besides having performed surgery on "a room-sized grouper named Bubba",  Dr. Royal is apparently the first person ever to perform acupuncture on a zebra.

[PCCraig]

Then again, if I loved in North Dakota, I might have a shotgun in my golf bag!!

Easy, Ian...just play a winter 9 during Trap season at GVC...problem solved...

[Bob_Huntley]

Steve,

You wrote earlier, "I followed the link and get a bio of Dr. Royal, but I don't find anything about dogs on golf courses. Though I do find it fascinating that, besides having performed surgery on "a room-sized grouper named Bubba",  Dr. Royal is apparently the first person ever to perform acupuncture on a zebra. 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:15:22 PM by Steve Okula »   

Some four or so years ago I was being treated by Professor Stoller at UCSF, a fabulous man. I found it that his pro bono work was acting at the San Fancisco Zoo as their Urologist. The idea of a comparison between his largest patient and me was rather deflating.

Bob   
 

[CStrange]

Ian,

This has gotten way OT on a topic that was already OT.  But hopefully it is information the the GCA clan is interested in seeing.  Like many folks on GCA it is sometimes hard to let something I believe in die quietly.  Winters are long in ND.  So I will just add a few points and hopefully we can move on.  No need for red letters today.

The reason I responded aggressively to your original post is, you state that a U.S. golf course is no place for pets or small children due to chemical use.  I think that is painting with pretty broad strokes and certainly not true or in the interest of golf industry that I am part of.  I have a professional obligation to try and educate.  I as a greenkeeper personally have the most to lose if I endanger the public or needlessly pollute the environment with unnescessary or misapplied chemicals.  If I thought something I doing was making dogs or animals sick, I wouldn't be doing it. I also have an obligation to be resourcful and maintain turf with the minimum number of inputs, and I take it seriously.

In ND and CO where I have worked chemical use is not widespread.  I would guess that it is significantly more in the Chicago area, especially at higher end country clubs.  You probably see the guys in the suits with respirators frequently.  That is required by law, and as applicators their exposure level risk is much greater than the general public.  

In CO the dry climate means most guys probably don't spray insecticides and get by with just 1 or 2 fungicide application on their greens going into Winter.  So far in ND, that is more or less my opinion on how I will proceed.  All of the chemicals that we spray, I would classify as safe.  I would never condone taking your dog for a walk on the grass right after an application.  Common sense and alot of scientific research also tells me that the miniscule levels of product that are being applied especially if proper application techniques are used pose little to no risk to my employees(my first concern) or golfers.  I would also agree that transdermal, or ingestion exposure by pets on treated turf is probably higher than that of a golfer(they don't wear shoes and they clean themselves with their tongues).  I would definetley get sick if that was my hygiene routine .  

That being said, there is one person on you course that can tell you what and when things are being sprayed.  As a member of the greens commitee you probably know him.  He could also probably guide you as to when good times to bring fido out might be.  I'm fairly certain this person wii go on the record and say small children are safe on the course.  And even I wouldn't recommend feeding grass to babies.

Now a little more tongue in cheek.  Thank you for posting the info on your DVM's credentials.  Here's Mine   http://www.chrisstrange.pro (If you go to gallery-photos of interest-and scroll down you can see my old goldens)(My wife had to put Riley the grey face down when I was playing MPCC Shore and she couldn't get ahold of me, tragic memory of a great golf course.)  As a rule of thumb I don't argue with doctors, they definitely function at a higher level than me.  It is all anecdotal but I will say that my pets have been to the doctor more times in their short lives than my entire family combined.  Not once has it ever been suggested that dogs are allergic to grass, and believe me the vets know where I work.  The topic of my work is usually followed by "Can you get me on?"  I don't really want to touch this one but it's definetley not something that will be keeping me up at night.  Please don't tell my dogs that they're allergic to chicken, they will be pissed.

Just for reference I am also posting the MSDS for a broad spectrum of products that I have applied on the golf course in the past.  These sheets are legally required to be on hand at the maintenance facility and contain lots of pertinent information on the health risks of each product.  Most will list if a product or an active ingredient is a known carcinogen.  I was suprised to see a few of the most common products listed as carcinogens.  Usually a rats vs humans issue.  Dogs I can't be sure.  
Maybe you are right .  There are different ratings from different scientific organizations.  Interpret the data and do more research if you like.

Trimec-2,4,D-Broadleaf Weed Control
http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp2PP001.pdf
Merit-Insecticide
http://www.co.fresno.ca.us/uploadedFiles/Departments/Agricultural_Commissioner/PDF/mp884001.pdf
Chlorothalonil-Fungicide for Dollar Spot
http://fs1.agrian.com/pdfs/Chlorothalonil_720_SFT_MSDS2.pdf
Heritage-Broad Spectrum Fungicide
http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp61T029.pdf
Primo-Growth Regulator
http://www.spsonline.com/sps/sites/default/files/imagefield_thumbs/PRIMO%20MAXX_MSDS.pdf

I would add that risk usually has more to do with exposure than the actual product.  Gasoline is a great example.  It is nasty stuff if you drink it or inhale it but you get within inches of it everyday without thinking twice, and it is more toxic than most golf course chemicals.  Another great example is aspirin.  If I said I was going to go spray the course with aspirin would you worry.  Why not?, it's more dangerous on an LD50 than most plant protectants.  Dog's probably have a greater exposure risk.  

And to end on a GCA friendly note.  Concrete cart paths are really hard on a dogs pads.  If you ever run them behind a cart make sure to not overrun them.  They learn after a while but every pup I've ever had has torn themselves up the first couple times out.  Just one more reason to do away with them.

Cheers,

I've got a few pheasant on the course but my dogs are oblivious.

Chris

[Ken Moum]

There's a very good reason why dogs on golf courses in Scotland are common while it is very rare here.

Scots take their dogs EVERYWHERE, and as a result they must be well-behaved. I'm a dog person and I have never seen so many under-conrol dogs in my life.  I could several stories, but they'd all have the same theme, Scottish dogs in places where they'd be totally banned here, acting like they knew what was expected and delivering it.

Conversely, here in the US, the vast majority of dogs kept as family pets are completely out of their owner's control most of the time. Scots walk their dogs in public off leash without them bothering anyone. Here, even a leashed dog can't be expected to be under control.

Just today I was at at a veterinarian's office with a friend  and there was a procession of dogs coming through. The closest I saw to a dog under its owner's control was a boxer that only pulled on its lease a little bit.  More typical was the lady with a smallish shepherd mix that couldn't keep it from dragging her across the tile floor of the office.  Her husband was there with a put bull that weighed about half as much as him, and wasn't interested in doing anything he was asked to.

Even my hunting dogs would have been impossible to take on a golf course off leash and they were about 10 times more obedient than the dogs of my friends.

I love seeing dogs on the golf course, but understand that having them depends completely on how well their owners control them.

This photo is from the public putting green in Nairn.... can you even imagine how far this would fly with a typical American pet spaniel?



This guy is the official guardian of the couch at Jacko's pub in Nairn, and there's a sheep dog there who checks out everyone that enters. Neither of them will accept food from customers..

[noonan]

A dissenting voice.

Dogs are for the park, preferably on a lead. I don't find your dog charming, in fact if I wanted to be surrounded by dogs and associated paraphernalia, I'd go to crufts.

Dogs have no place on the course and are about as appropriate as taking a Labrador out whilst opening the batting.

Agree!

[Charlie_Bell]

At Royal Dornoch, not only did I see a dog playing the 18th…




…but I also saw one helping the course manager set the hole locations.  (And, yes, those are the pews of Foxy.)

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I know from whence Ian Mackenzie finds his family reeling from several cancerous Golden Retrievers. Not sure if chemicals are to blame or poor breeding as the breeder in New Jersey has had problems with cancer. (or so the scuttlebutt goes). Also Goldens are notoriously susceptible to cancer especially in the USA.

As for mine I have tried golfing with her but it is impossible as she is irrepressibly affectionate and wants to press her body against me and be petted at all times. No way to ask her to sit and be disciplined while I set up and swing.

However, she loves romping in the snow on the course. Here with my daughter near the third green....

DSCN0033 by macmalc21, on Flickr

And here...

DSCN0027 by macmalc21, on Flickr

and here...

DSCN0031 by macmalc21, on Flickr

[john_stiles]

Have already posted one of my  'dog on course'  photos.

Would like to add that in the USA, on the  PBS network last night January 14, was a repeat showing of "Dogs Decoded." It is a very nice documentary discussing the bond between man and their dogs, and their uncanny ability to read emotions.   Fascinating video and discussion of dogs and Inuit in Alaska hunting for seal, etc.     Also showed a long segment on border collies herding sheep and all the whistles the dogs learn. The next episode will delve deeper into dog's ability to sense cancer, detect impending seizures,  etc., etc.  not to mention seeing eye dogs, police dogs, etc., etc. 

Dog in the snow (above) reminded me of last evenings PBS show.

It is nice that man's best friend gets on the golf course as well !

[Tom Dunne]

I have met some incredible dogs in the UK, both on and off the golf course. Can any members from across the pond speak to the training method/culture that produces such well-behaved canines? Is it a Barbara Woodhouse thing? I love dogs (even though I'm rather allergic to them) and it would be a dream to have one as a golf companion someday.

[Ken Moum]

I have met some incredible dogs in the UK, both on and off the golf course. Can any members from across the pond speak to the training method/culture that produces such well-behaved canines? Is it a Barbara Woodhouse thing? I love dogs (even though I'm rather allergic to them) and it would be a dream to have one as a golf companion someday.

Getting dogs to behave is all about expectations and consistency.  The ill-mannered dogs I know are all a product of owners who cannot be consistent with their interaction with the dog, and who have few expectations or demands for the dog.

The Scottish dogs I've seen are expected to behave because their owners take them everywhere.

One other important factor is breeding. Here, indiscriminate breeding has ruined several breeds, none worse than cocker spainiels.  If you buy a puppy from a breeder who has too many litters a year, who doesnt care if the dogs are biddable, pays little or no attention to bloodlines and performance of the sire and dame.... you'll get one that's going to take everything you've got.to.train it.

[Philip Gawith]

Huntercombe does indeed allow dogs on the course, as does pretty well every traditional course in the UK, and no doubt many others besides. Brian captured the point very neatly in his earlier response - playing with a dog is generally a sign that someone is more interested in the pleasure of being outdoors and having some fun as opposed to what score they are shooting. Sunningdale is probably the exception in being a course that is both very competitive and where you see dogs. Most likely the more competitive members are not playing with dogs!

As a city dweller i don't  own a dog, but i love seeing them on the golf course and feel they add a lot to the ambience whenever they are present.

Philip

[Bill_McBride]

I've always loved meeting the superintendent's dog out on the course, usually sitting in the boss's cart waiting for a goose to chase.   How cool and smart are border collies?

[Ken Moum]

I've always loved meeting the superintendent's dog out on the course, usually sitting in the boss's cart waiting for a goose to chase.   How cool and smart are border collies?

Too smart, for the most part.  They're so intensely bred to herd that if you don't keep them busy they start to act neurotic.  A friend used to breed them for competition, and to keep her dogs busy she'd put a bunch of empty milk jugs in the yard.

When the wind blew them around, the dog would spend all day trying to get them herded up.

K

[Bill_McBride]

I've always loved meeting the superintendent's dog out on the course, usually sitting in the boss's cart waiting for a goose to chase.   How cool and smart are border collies?

Too smart, for the most part.  They're so intensely bred to herd that if you don't keep them busy they start to act neurotic.  A friend used to breed them for competition, and to keep her dogs busy she'd put a bunch of empty milk jugs in the yard.

When the wind blew them around, the dog would spend all day trying to get them herded up.

K

Totally agree!  Our Australian Sheperd (a border collie subset), Willie, would herd the dining room chairs.  Those dogs need a job.