Why don't we discuss more examples of failed architecture ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The thread on Trump L.A. mentioned "tiered" or "terraced" holes, holes seemingly layered upon one another on a hillside site.

I'm familiar with a course in NJ that has a similar arrangement and was always curious why a nearby course, with a similar site/situation, was such a superior golf course.

I also remember reading what Donald Ross had to say about locating the clubhouse and the influence that had upon the resultant golf course.

Is there an example of an exception course with "tiered" or "terraced" holes, layered upon one another that traverse a hillside ?

Is that routing doomed to failure ?

In terms of playability, you seem to have two primary lies, ball above your feet, ball below your feet.
Hence, in terms of playability, it's not what one would look forward to.

Courses on hillsides that seem to have achieved some measure of success seem to have the clubhouse at the highest point with the opening and closing holes feeding down and back up to the clubhouse with the tiered/terraced holes on the flattest portion of the property.

Off the top of my head I can't recall one exceptional course with a back and forth routing on the side of a hill, can you ?

[Mark Fedeli]

Pat, you aren't referring to Berkshire Valley by any chance? That's the NJ course that immediately came to mind for me. The first 5 holes are terraced on a significant hillside.

What's always bothered me there is that all the bunkers on these holes are on the right side, between the fairway and a drop-off down the hill. I found that to be a missed opportunity.

The drop-off is steep and dramatic and it should have been used to tempt players to play near it to gain an advantage. Instead, anything to the right side of the fairway is at an immediate disadvantage because... all the greenside bunkers are on the right (and right-front) as well! The only play on all the holes is left left left—even the par 3.

That all said, it's a municipal course and this set-up likely speeds up play. The bunkers help stop balls from tumbling over and encourage players to aim safely away.

[DMoriarty]

I cannot think of any exceptional courses that are terraced into a hillside.  

A better one than Trump National L.A. might be the course at Manele Bay on Lanai in Hawaii, by the Nicklaus people.   It is located on a hillside above ocean cliffs, and the holes generally run back and forth across the hillside.  It differs from Trump though, in that 1) the course seems to uses much more land, so the holes aren't sitting one atop another, and 2) the hillside is not so steep so that fitting the course into the hillside does not feel as artificial.  Also, there are places on the course that use the natural fall of the land to greater advantage.

Still though, while Manele is a good cart ball course, I don't consider it great course, probably in part because of the terraced feel to the routing and the disjointedness caused by having to work your way around the terraces.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

No, that's not the course I was referring to.

[Bill_McBride]

"Tiered" perfectly describes the worst course I have ever played, Furry Creek just north of Vancouver BC.  Hit a pull hook and find your ball two tiers/fairways down.   

[Stewart Abramson]

Pat - Have you played Brynwood (f/k/a) Canyon, in Northern Westchester?  Many of the holes are  carved parallel across the side of a large hill that dominates almost the entire footprint of the course.  Besides lots of side hill lies, if you hit a fade or a draw in the same direction of the slope you will not be near the fairway other than the next fairway down the hill. I believe they have hired Rees Jones to do some work, but I don't think there is much that can be done if they retain the existing routing, and perhaps even if they don't.


Canyon #5 approach


Canyon #7 from tee


Canyon #10


Canyon #11 from tee


Canyon #13 approach from left fairway


Canyon #14 approach

[Mark Bourgeois]

It's a great question. I think of it in terms of the "noble failure," by which I mean a design that's innovative but that ultimately underperforms for some reason. Not necessarily a bad design, just one where the ideas were hobbled: perhaps due to the terrain, the climate or later on the work of a green chairman or super.

Really interesting when you find a noble failure in an architect's portfolio because it can help you work out his philosophy or at least what he was trying to do at that point in his career, sometimes more clearly than you could by looking at his "successes".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Stewart,

I never played it.

Is it worth the drive ?

[Stewart Abramson]

Stewart,
I never played it.
Is it worth the drive ?

Only if you like the ball above or below your feet. I play their because of who I play with, not because of the course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Red Sky Ranch (Norman) is a very good example of traversing a hillside.  Norman did a great job routing the course near Vail.

[Jim Sherma]

Harker's Hollow in Harmony, NJ outside of Phillipsburg is a hillside course. The front nine mostly attacks the hill up and down while the back tacks up the hill across a knob before plunging down at the 17th. It is a cool routing done by Robert White. The course is certainly not great, but is quite good and prior to the fairway irrigation softening it, I considered it a superior course in terms of the shots and local knowledge required to score well on it. Also, Tarz Ford used to play out of there and was evidently quite the player and character according to my dad.

[David_Tepper]

The Olympic Club Lake Course is among the most prominent courses routed across an appreciable hillside. None of the holes play directly up or down the slope of the property. Sidehill lies come into play on almost every hole.

What makes the course interesting (and to some controversial) is that a number of the holes (#2, #4, #5, #9 & #17) have doglegs that turn against the slope of the property. On those holes you can be asked to hit a draw into the green with the ball below you feet or a fade with the ball above your feet.

That being said, there are not many who consider the course an example of failed architecture.

[Sean_A]

Extreme terrain rarely lends itself to top flight golf.  Even in the age of carting around, many people still want to see routings that can be walked if we are talking about the best. 

I don't think I have ever come across a completely "layered" course.  Although not back and forth, Seascale works around ground on different layers and I think it works quite well.  Not top 100, but there are enough very good holes to easily justify the £35 green fee.

Ciao

[Carl Rogers]

The 5th at the Homestead, (Flynn), is the longest hole on the course (+/-570). The first 250+ yards peels right around the bottom edge a good sized hill (that probably required a lot rock excavation back in the early 20's) in what could have a very awkward way, but nevertheless works well and is a distinctive hole.  I think it represents a difficult routing problem that in lesser hands would have failed.

Some may disagree with this and consider the hole the weakest on the course.

[Tom_Doak]

The "terraced" course that came to mind for me was Spring City, the RTJ II course in Kunming that was ranked #1 in China for a while.  It descends steeply 300 or 400 feet down to the lakefront 9th hole by a series of terraces, and then back up the terraces for the back nine.  It's well done for what it is, but to think such a routing could be the #1 course in China tells you a lot about the golf in China.

[Matthew Petersen]

I cannot think of any exceptional courses that are terraced into a hillside.  

A better one than Trump National L.A. might be the course at Manele Bay on Lanai in Hawaii, by the Nicklaus people.   It is located on a hillside above ocean cliffs, and the holes generally run back and forth across the hillside.  It differs from Trump though, in that 1) the course seems to uses much more land, so the holes aren't sitting one atop another, and 2) the hillside is not so steep so that fitting the course into the hillside does not feel as artificial.  Also, there are places on the course that use the natural fall of the land to greater advantage.

Still though, while Manele is a good cart ball course, I don't consider it great course, probably in part because of the terraced feel to the routing and the disjointedness caused by having to work your way around the terraces.

Manele came to mind for me as well. It's a fine course, but certainly not great. It doesn't feel compressed or especially terraced. You notice it mostly looking at the routing on the scorecard, and maybe after a while toward the end of the front nine you get the sense that every hole is along the hill in one direction or another, never up or down the hillside.

But it's very much cartball and the holes are separate enough from each other that it doesn't really feel anything like Trump LA (which I have seen but not played FWIW).