[Adam Clayman]

Benjamin, Your observation that the Blue is more cohesive, is most interesting. Interesting to me, because Tom doesn't design with "themes" in mind.

It escapes me which holes were routed by whom, but, It would interesting to put that info into context with the sequences you've highlighted.

[Benjamin Litman]

Thanks, Adam. Whether cohesiveness was Tom's purpose or not, that is certainly the result--again, at least vis-a-vis the Red course. I did read that Tom chose to design the Blue course instead of the Red course because the latter required more earth moving--perhaps suggesting that he wanted the land with a more natural, rolling feel. As for which architect initially routed which holes, I've read bits and pieces here and there but haven't yet compiled everything in one place. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can speak to your point.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I've just written my review of Streamsong Blue. I published it here: https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/96550-streamsong-blue-a-quick-review/ . I'd copy and paste it here, but I'm not sure the images would work. I'm happy to do so - here or in a different topic - if it suits the other members here.

I caution my readers at the beginning that they should NOT give a lot of weight to my review as I played the course but one time. I don't think courses should be reviewed after one time, which is not to say that first impressions don't matter, but that more than the first impression matters. Changing weather conditions, etc.

Two things I'd bring over from my review are in the cons section. They are:

• The bunker sand was like beach sand: 6" deep and easily shifting. I'm almost reluctant to list this one, because bunkers should be hazards, but this is almost going a bit too far. I'd prefer unraked but firm bunkers. That would still make bunkers a challenge (think Kiawah Island Ocean Course). These felt like unkempt bunkers where they'd just dumped in way too much sand and hadn't done anything to compact it. Even raking it was  bigger chore. You had to just play a chunk/run type shot; if you wanted any spin you almost had to a) get lucky with a clean lie and not a slightly plugged one, and b) pick the ball almost clean. For a resort? Meh.
• The fairway approach areas were soft, and the greens, though not rock-hard, were medium firm. This is my greatest dislike: I expected to be able to play the ground game, but couldn't. Balls would die out and almost all their speed would be scrubbed before the ball trundled onto the green. It was very disappointing to see what I was seeing, understand what I think I understand about Tom Doak's work, and have to play an almost typical American-style "fly it to the hole" type of golf. It made using the slopes on the greens less fun and effective, and rendered the slopes and contours fronting the greens completely irrelevant, as balls couldn't be counted upon to not plug. And no, there was no rain storm or any unusual weather before we played - the ground should have been reasonably firm. Perhaps there's just too much sand beneath it? (Though there's obviously plenty of sand beneath links courses in Scotland, and those are firm as firm gets.)

The first I'm torn about, because again I do think bunkers should be hazards, but they just didn't feel right. Make the bunkers too penal and players can't show off their skills in hitting them cleanly with spin. But again, maybe that's by design.

The second, maybe I just had the wrong idea, but I was disappointed to discover that I couldn't play the type of golf I thought I would get to play there.

Anyway, I had a great time, and I'd love to play it six more times, in different winds and weather, and start to apply some of the local knowledge I didn't have the first time around.

P.S. If this belongs in another topic, or a new one, moderators should feel free to move it.

[Steve Lang]

   Teacher or not... review seems more about your game than the course architecture... maybe you need more game?


I've gotten in only a couple of plays there from september's dixie cup and I don't understand your complaints, but I've only been playing 57 years, so I could be misinformed.
   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

  Teacher or not... review seems more about your game than the course architecture... maybe you need more game?

I've gotten in only a couple of plays there from september's dixie cup and I don't understand your complaints, but I've only been playing 57 years, so I could be misinformed.

That doesn't make sense to me. I didn't mention my game too much (and for as little as I get to practice and play, a +1 is "okay.") and my few cons were, as far as I could tell, pretty easy to understand: the sand was like a beach sand and the approaches in front of the greens didn't allow me to run the ball onto the greens like I expected to be able to do, like I've done in Scotland, etc.

It's fine if you didn't like my review, but I'd like to understand why.

[Tom_Doak]

I did read that Tom chose to design the Blue course instead of the Red course because the latter required more earth moving--perhaps suggesting that he wanted the land with a more natural, rolling feel. As for which architect initially routed which holes, I've read bits and pieces here and there but haven't yet compiled everything in one place.

Benjamin:

I didn't see this thread three years ago when it was posted - I was probably traveling somewhere.  It's a bit hard to follow with the pictures gone now, but I appreciate your effort and your kind comments about the course.

There are a couple of statements you've made about my work and what I like to do that are inaccurate ... for example, just because I'm sick of people trying for 12 infinity greens in 18 holes doesn't mean I won't build one.  [See:  the 12th at Cape Kidnappers.]  Also, I generally don't think about bunkers I've built before or seen somewhere else, when we are building bunkers on a new hole.  We just try to make them look good where we think they should go.

As to who routed what hole, Bill Coore had done one version of an 18-hole routing before I got there, that included 3-4-5-6 Blue [with some modification of green positions] and also 8 and 15.  But, it was Bill who chose which course to build, not me.  We both insisted we would be happy to build either course, and neither of us really wanted to pick.  It's possible he gave me the course he thought I was most comfortable with, or that he made his choice to go against the stereotype of what others assumed he would pick.  [He blames the decision on his shapers asking for the course that had more work for them to do.]  I was less familiar with the first few holes of the Red course, which were the last ones to be added to the routing by Bill, to get us up to 36.

Eventually this will all be in my routing book, but that could still be a couple of years away.

[Tom_Doak]

• The bunker sand was like beach sand: 6" deep and easily shifting. I'm almost reluctant to list this one, because bunkers should be hazards, but this is almost going a bit too far. I'd prefer unraked but firm bunkers. That would still make bunkers a challenge (think Kiawah Island Ocean Course). These felt like unkempt bunkers where they'd just dumped in way too much sand and hadn't done anything to compact it. Even raking it was  bigger chore. You had to just play a chunk/run type shot; if you wanted any spin you almost had to a) get lucky with a clean lie and not a slightly plugged one, and b) pick the ball almost clean. For a resort? Meh.
• The fairway approach areas were soft, and the greens, though not rock-hard, were medium firm. This is my greatest dislike: I expected to be able to play the ground game, but couldn't. Balls would die out and almost all their speed would be scrubbed before the ball trundled onto the green. It was very disappointing to see what I was seeing, understand what I think I understand about Tom Doak's work, and have to play an almost typical American-style "fly it to the hole" type of golf. It made using the slopes on the greens less fun and effective, and rendered the slopes and contours fronting the greens completely irrelevant, as balls couldn't be counted upon to not plug. And no, there was no rain storm or any unusual weather before we played - the ground should have been reasonably firm. Perhaps there's just too much sand beneath it? (Though there's obviously plenty of sand beneath links courses in Scotland, and those are firm as firm gets.)

Erik:


I had the chance to play the Blue course in December, the day after my first round on the Black course.  Toward the end of the round we were joined by our client Rich Mack and the superintendent Rusty Mercer, and I told Rusty I was really pleased with the condition and presentation of the course.  They've had some common bermuda contamination in some of the fairways in the past couple of years, which is hard to fight down there, and that has made the course a bit softer in some spots than I'd prefer, but Rusty has been involved since the whole place was a giant sand pile, and he's doing his damnedest to present the courses the way Bill and I want them.


As to your comment about the sand, I am reminded of when I was at Royal Troon for the Open in 1982, and Gary Player opined that there was too much sand in the bunkers.  One of the local reporters asked the greenkeeper about Player's comment, and his response was printed in the paper the next day:  "I really don't know how to respond, as far as I know the sand goes all the way to China."   


As at Troon, most of the sand at Streamsong is just the soil we had to work with in place.  There were a couple of heavier areas [Blue #2 green and Blue #17 fairway, that I remember distinctly], but the rest of the bunkers were just shaped in place and no "bunker sand" has been added, to my knowledge.  I guess we could have brought in special sand from off site to make the bunkers play easier, but we chose not to.  The Red course is the same, I believe.  The Black might be different, since I know they had to do a lot of sand capping on the fairways there.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I had the chance to play the Blue course in December, the day after my first round on the Black course.  Toward the end of the round we were joined by our client Rich Mack and the superintendent Rusty Mercer, and I told Rusty I was really pleased with the condition and presentation of the course.  They've had some common bermuda contamination in some of the fairways in the past couple of years, which is hard to fight down there, and that has made the course a bit softer in some spots than I'd prefer, but Rusty has been involved since the whole place was a giant sand pile, and he's doing his damnedest to present the courses the way Bill and I want them.

So did I play on a day with some unusual conditions, or would you expect a punched partial 4I from 180 to fail to scoot even 25 feet from where it hits just before a green? Have I misunderstood how often you like to allow the ground game, or is this just a little unique to Streamsong? Maybe with the overly sandy bunkers, the approaches are likewise "softer"?

I played a 6I on 17 at the Old Course that flew 100 yards and bounced and rolled the other 80 or so to the green. That shot, and many like it from my time in Scotland, stand out as some of the most fun I've ever had playing golf. I was thinking I could do something a bit like that at Streamsong, but couldn't.

As to your comment about the sand, I am reminded of when I was at Royal Troon for the Open in 1982, and Gary Player opined that there was too much sand in the bunkers.  One of the local reporters asked the greenkeeper about Player's comment, and his response was printed in the paper the next day:  "I really don't know how to respond, as far as I know the sand goes all the way to China."   

As at Troon, most of the sand at Streamsong is just the soil we had to work with in place.  There were a couple of heavier areas [Blue #2 green and Blue #17 fairway, that I remember distinctly], but the rest of the bunkers were just shaped in place and no "bunker sand" has been added, to my knowledge.  I guess we could have brought in special sand from off site to make the bunkers play easier, but we chose not to.  The Red course is the same, I believe.  The Black might be different, since I know they had to do a lot of sand capping on the fairways there.

Fair enough. As I said, I was conflicted there, and suspected this might be the norm, but didn't want to assume. Conflicted because I do think bunkers should be hazards, and yet selfishly I want to be able to play a spinny shot from a lie with a little sand and a firm base. Bunkers, I tell people, are supposed to be hazards, and I guess they're just ever more so at Streamsong. Noted for future trips around the property.

I don't expect an answer to either - you're a busy guy - but thanks in advance if you do find the time, however brief.

[Tom_Doak]

So did I play on a day with some unusual conditions, or would you expect a punched partial 4I from 180 to fail to scoot even 25 feet from where it hits just before a green? Have I misunderstood how often you like to allow the ground game, or is this just a little unique to Streamsong? Maybe with the overly sandy bunkers, the approaches are likewise "softer"?

I played a 6I on 17 at the Old Course that flew 100 yards and bounced and rolled the other 80 or so to the green. That shot, and many like it from my time in Scotland, stand out as some of the most fun I've ever had playing golf. I was thinking I could do something a bit like that at Streamsong, but couldn't.

I don't know which hole at Streamsong you hit that 4-iron.  You were probably playing the Road Hole downwind, with your ball landing on a gentle downhill slope toward the green, so are you making a close comparison here?


Have you ever played a course in Florida that had really bouncy fairways?  I don't think I have.  In general, comparing Bermuda fairways to the conditions in St. Andrews is asking a lot.  The bermuda is much more aggressive in building roots and thatch than fescue is.  The only way you could keep it that firm would be to verticut about every week, which no resort is going to do in high season. 


I love it when the surface gets bouncy, and holes like #11 and #18 really shine when it does.  But I can't expect for it to be bouncy in Florida on a regular basis.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't know which hole at Streamsong you hit that 4-iron.  You were probably playing the Road Hole downwind, with your ball landing on a gentle downhill slope toward the green, so are you making a close comparison here?

The Road Hole was almost a pure right-to-left wind at the time.

Streamsong, the 4-iron, that was on #11. FWIW.

Have you ever played a course in Florida that had really bouncy fairways? I don't think I have. In general, comparing Bermuda fairways to the conditions in St. Andrews is asking a lot. The bermuda is much more aggressive in building roots and thatch than fescue is.  The only way you could keep it that firm would be to verticut about every week, which no resort is going to do in high season.

To answer your question, no, and thank you. That explains it, and my error going in thinking that I could play the types of shots I had pictured. I suppose the ground game is limited more so to shorter shots around the greens, not approach shots. Got it.

I love it when the surface gets bouncy, and holes like #11 and #18 really shine when it does.  But I can't expect for it to be bouncy in Florida on a regular basis.

Yeah, #11 was the one I was most disappointed by, as it seemed ripe for trying to play a running shot into the green.

I too love a bouncy surface. Super fun, and a completely new dimension to the game. Unfortunately, awfully rare not only in Florida, but everywhere in the U.S. Thank you again.

[Tom_Doak]

#11, unfortunately, plays into the wind a lot of the time in winter, so it doesn't get the benefit of the bounce as much as #18.

[Peter Flory]

Very random observation here: I just noticed that the first hole in one at the Streamsong resort happened on a par 4 (13th hole on the Blue).  Wondering if this might be the only course in the World where that is the case. 

[Tom_Doak]

Very random observation here: I just noticed that the first hole in one at the Streamsong resort happened on a par 4 (13th hole on the Blue).  Wondering if this might be the only course in the World where that is the case.

That would be very rare, if it was true.  But I don't think it's true.  IIRC, David Fay made a hole in one on 5 Blue in the opening event.

[Kyle Harris]

Very random observation here: I just noticed that the first hole in one at the Streamsong resort happened on a par 4 (13th hole on the Blue).  Wondering if this might be the only course in the World where that is the case.

That would be very rare, if it was true.  But I don't think it's true.  IIRC, David Fay made a hole in one on 5 Blue in the opening event.

It's true.

Happened during some preview play before we opened. Flags and tees were out.


There was also an ace of Red #5 very early on. Downwind.


Oddly, to this day, I've always been able to bounce a 180-yard punch 4-iron on to Blue #11 green. I can't comment as to how far it scooted because, well, from 180 yards the entire approach area is blind. 

[Carl Rogers]

Much of, for me, the Streamsong experience starts at Lakeland and the drive South on state road 37.


Very distintive semi-lunar, almost sci-fi if not ugly landscape.


The 3 golf courses offer a complete contrast to those miles of indiscriminate waste land from the generations of phosphate mining.


Buildings are my field and IMO they are stunningly excellent!  Some the most effective use of cor-ten steel I have ever seen.  Interesting Interior Design, lighting etc

[Joe Bausch]

A few months ago I took the time to tune up my photo album for SS Blue based upon a handful of visits.  And with most people sheltering at home and surfing the web not on their phone but a bigger monitor, my Galerie generated photo albums are particularly well-suited. 

The SS Blue album:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StreamsongBlue/index.html

And for those interested, tuned up Red and Black albums are here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StreamsongRed/index.html

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StreamsongBlack/index.html

[Peter Flory]

I really like a short uphill approach shot on a 1st hole.  And the downhill tee shot with the uphill approach is even better, like at SS Blue.  It is a gentle handshake, but without a give away.  i.e. easy to par, but still a challenge to birdie.  And it is also a 1st hole that doesn't make me feel the need to go to the driving range beforehand.  I know that I can wing it and build some feel before the next hole. 

Bandon Trails stands out to me as well.  It's not that it is rare, just that I'm realizing that I like this dynamic after looking at your photo tour. 

[Ira Fishman]

A few months ago I took the time to tune up my photo album for SS Blue based upon a handful of visits.  And with most people sheltering at home and surfing the web not on their phone but a bigger monitor, my Galerie generated photo albums are particularly well-suited. 

The SS Blue album:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StreamsongBlue/index.html

And for those interested, tuned up Red and Black albums are here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StreamsongRed/index.html

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StreamsongBlack/index.html

Joe,


Thanks for bringing back such vivid memories of some of the bunkers I placed myself in! The photos remind me as well of how good Numbers 4 and 8 are and how the course has such a strong finish including two really good Par 5s. Number 16 is an underrated Par 3 too.


Ira

[Bill Brightly]

Red and Blue closed, Black still open. Are they re-grassing?

[Bryan Izatt]

From another recent thread:


https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/streamsong-resort-new-greens-bermudagrass/


or maybe it's the result of the COVID-19 situation.  Can't imagine many people are going out Streamsong way.  Or that crews are regrassing.

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