A Bad Start to the New Year

[Jonathan Mallard]

That 8 minute window is worth $336, no $84.

I used to tell my mother way back in the day that my baseball cards were worth $X.

My mother used to always tell me that they were worth what I could get for them - implicitly at a fair market.

Applied to this particular incident, the 8 minute window noted was worth exactly $168.

If Bryan hadn't booked the round, it may well have been worth $0.

[Greg Tallman]

That 8 minute window is worth $336, no $84.

I used to tell my mother way back in the day that my baseball cards were worth $X.

My mother used to always tell me that they were worth what I could get for them - implicitly at a fair market.

Applied to this particular incident, the 8 minute window noted was worth exactly $168.

If Bryan hadn't booked the round, it may well have been worth $0.

Understood but not exactly the point. Paul believes it is his right to demand to go out as a twosome, potentially robbing the facility of $168 in revenue. He further acts as though it is some bizarre business decision exclusive to that facility. That is absurd as I believe 99.99% of the folks on this site would agree.

As others have stated if you wish to play as a 2some simply pay for the entire tee time. Pretty simple. Heck we have uber wealthy folks that will purchase an entire hour so they are not bothered. To each his own.

[Pat Burke]

Greg,
Pretty funny.  I had a very young golf pro trying to play a few years ago.  Dad was very, very wealthy.
I went to a course to help him with a practice round for a tournament, and he paid for a foursome
so the two of us could work together without distraction.
I thought it was pretty amazing.  Of course he had unlimited resources and really just didn't want to play with anyone
else, probably more than the desire to learn something!!

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
Pretty funny.  I had a very young golf pro trying to play a few years ago.  Dad was very, very wealthy.
I went to a course to help him with a practice round for a tournament, and he paid for a foursome
so the two of us could work together without distraction.
I thought it was pretty amazing.  Of course he had unlimited resources and really just didn't want to play with anyone
else, probably more than the desire to learn something!!

Used to have to demand the same for similar situations when we were turning people away every day. Now I can direct them to an open time and not charge for that spot. However if they have to play at a specific, popular time, they must pay. Paul would be APaul-ed.

[Paul Gray]

Greg,

Once again, I feel fortunate to live on this little island of apparent golfing heaven. The only places you'll usually find undertaking such a practice are the pile-it-high-and-sell-it-cheap brigade, although I'll grant you a certain well known course in Scotland is also know to do it. Admittedly some of the mutton dressed as lamb establishments might well do the same but I promise you that there'd be open revolt at the vast majority of quality venues if you started trying to bunch the members together.

I even used to work at one of the aforementioned lesser clubs and even then we actively told people that if they didn't want the online booking system to pair them up we were quite happy for them to just block the whole tee time off at no additional cost.

So, in conclusion, 99.99% of golfers here are most certainly not going to agree with you, since more than 0.01% are from these shores.  

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

Once again, I feel fortunate to live on this little island of apparent golfing heaven. The only places you'll usually find undertaking such a practice are the pile-it-high-and-sell-it-cheap brigade, although I'll grant you a certain well known course in Scotland is also know to do it. Admittedly some of the mutton dressed as lamb establishments might well do the same but I promise you that there'd be open revolt at the vast majority of quality venues if you started trying to bunch the members together.

I even used to work at one of the aforementioned lesser clubs and even then we actively told people that if they didn't want the online booking system to pair them up we were quite happy for them to just block the whole tee time off at no additional cost.

So, in conclusion, 99.99% of golfers here are most certainly not going to agree with you, since more than 0.01% are from these shores.  

That is why you join a private facility. That is fine, but don't condemn a resort/public facility for selling the open spaces of a tee time which is precisely what you did.

Also, I am sure there are any number of highly thought of private facilities that would not permit a twosome during a busy period if it would exclude two other members, who paid the same as you, from playing.

I am comfortable with my 99.99% guestimate. 

[John Kavanaugh]

My favorite thing in all of golf is when a course charges for a non playing acquaintance to tag along.  What I do wonder is when you pay for an hour of tee times, when do you tee off?  In the middle, start or end of the slot?  Personally I would pay to not have anyone behind me. But then again, I'm the only slow golfer to have ever posted on this site.

[Paul Gray]

Greg,

Once again, I feel fortunate to live on this little island of apparent golfing heaven. The only places you'll usually find undertaking such a practice are the pile-it-high-and-sell-it-cheap brigade, although I'll grant you a certain well known course in Scotland is also know to do it. Admittedly some of the mutton dressed as lamb establishments might well do the same but I promise you that there'd be open revolt at the vast majority of quality venues if you started trying to bunch the members together.

I even used to work at one of the aforementioned lesser clubs and even then we actively told people that if they didn't want the online booking system to pair them up we were quite happy for them to just block the whole tee time off at no additional cost.

So, in conclusion, 99.99% of golfers here are most certainly not going to agree with you, since more than 0.01% are from these shores.  

That is why you join a private facility. That is fine, but don't condemn a resort/public facility for selling the open spaces of a tee time which is precisely what you did.

Also, I am sure there are any number of highly thought of private facilities that would not permit a twosome during a busy period if it would exclude two other members, who paid the same as you, from playing.

I am comfortable with my 99.99% guestimate.  

Some clubs will stipulate times for fourballs only. That's about it. Wouldn't dream of doing it at my place.

I promise you I could go to a number of websites right now and book a cheap and cheerful round at any number of courses which, once I'd paid my £10 or £15, wouldn't be pairing me up with anyone. Since we're doing this, I will specifically site the New Forest Golf Club, where I have a round with my Dad three or four times per year and pay anywhere from £5 right up to an extortionate £8. Feel free to look it up on teetimes.co.uk if you don't believe me. I promise you, because of the way the online system works, we were once, and only once, paired with two other guys and the pro was extremely apologetic and made sure we went off separately.

Regardless, I did say that if people wanted to queue up to be treated like walking money, more fool them. That doesn't mean I'm going to pat the club on the back and pretend they're treating people like royalty. I merely observed that, for me, I found it all rather cheap and nasty, but then naked commercialism is. And obviously I don't literally mean cheap, mores the shame. My only proviso was that I would expect the club to be absolutely explicit about their policy.

[Greg Tallman]

My favorite thing in all of golf is when a course charges for a non playing acquaintance to tag along.  What I do wonder is when you pay for an hour of tee times, when do you tee off?  In the middle, start or end of the slot?  Personally I would pay to not have anyone behind me. But then again, I'm the only slow golfer to have ever posted on this site.

1. Such a charge should be applied only when an extra cart is required, which is most of the time.

2. Generally in the middle which allows you to play at your own pace and if you are catching the group in front you can fall back as necessary... unless their is a demanding 2some breathing down your neck after a handful of holes!  

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

Once again, I feel fortunate to live on this little island of apparent golfing heaven. The only places you'll usually find undertaking such a practice are the pile-it-high-and-sell-it-cheap brigade, although I'll grant you a certain well known course in Scotland is also know to do it. Admittedly some of the mutton dressed as lamb establishments might well do the same but I promise you that there'd be open revolt at the vast majority of quality venues if you started trying to bunch the members together.

I even used to work at one of the aforementioned lesser clubs and even then we actively told people that if they didn't want the online booking system to pair them up we were quite happy for them to just block the whole tee time off at no additional cost.

So, in conclusion, 99.99% of golfers here are most certainly not going to agree with you, since more than 0.01% are from these shores.  

That is why you join a private facility. That is fine, but don't condemn a resort/public facility for selling the open spaces of a tee time which is precisely what you did.

Also, I am sure there are any number of highly thought of private facilities that would not permit a twosome during a busy period if it would exclude two other members, who paid the same as you, from playing.

I am comfortable with my 99.99% guestimate.  

Some clubs will stipulate times for fourballs only. That's about it. Wouldn't dream of doing it at my place.

I promise you I could go to a number of websites right now and book a cheap and cheerful round at any number of courses which, once I'd paid my £10 or £15, wouldn't be pairing me up with anyone. Since we're doing this, I will specifically site the New Forest Golf Club, where I have a round with my Dad three or four times per year and pay anywhere from £5 right up to an extortionate £8. Feel free to look it up on teetimes.co.uk if you don't believe me. I promise you, because of the way the online system works, we were once, and only once, paired with two other guys and the pro was extremely apologetic and made sure we went off separately.

Regardless, I did say that if people wanted to queue up to be treated like walking money, more fool them. That doesn't mean I'm going to pat the club on the back and pretend they're treating people like royalty. I merely observed that, for me, I found it all rather cheap and nasty, but then naked commercialism is. And obviously I don't literally mean cheap, mores the shame. My only proviso was that I would expect the club to be absolutely explicit about their policy.

There is nothing secretive about tee times containing four available spaces. Period. Your acting as though there is and facilities are perpetrating some big fraud on the consumer is, again, absurd.

You  will be horrified to hear that our facility has met with twosomes with your stance, demanding they will not play other human beings, and, though we take no pleasure in doing so, we oblige and send them on their way...















to the parking lot... without refund.


 

[Pat Burke]

"to the parking lot... without refund."




Greg, are you hiring?

[Craig Sweet]

January 1st in Montana is nothing like that...so stop your whining and bitching.  Happy New Year.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

I take umbrage with your comments on the maintenance. For starters, your observation that the green was not cut all the way out to the perimeter as sloppy is full-bore ignorance of common and accepted golf maintenance practices. Nobody cuts the perimeter every day, and this is especially true and critical with triplex mowers. 

Count me as ignorant then.  I am now enlightened.  I've played a good many courses in 57 years of playing and I've seen very few cut like these greens were, so I'd question how common a practice it is.  But, then, I'm ignorant.  

I have played Streamsong a number of times and I doubt that you would ever present the greens this way or at this speed at any time.

The presentation of these greens was sloppy in my opinion.

Second, you were playing on New Year's Day, a holiday. It's likely the crew was a skeleton crew, if they even mowed at all. It's also possible that half the staff didn't bother to show up. You get what you get on a day like that.

Yes, I guessed that there was either no crew or a skeleton staff on New Year's day.  As to "you get what you get", the course asking full price and a premium price so I expect, as a customer to get something akin to quality to match the price charged that day.  Nobody said the greens weren't cut, or weren't totally cut when they took my green fee.  

Third, complaining about pace of play while engaging in one of the most abysmal practices for golf course flow (not combining consecutive twosomes into foursomes), is rather trite especially coming on the heels of calling the younger golfer arrogant.

I wasn't really complaining about pace of play.  I was complaining about the dad teaching and controlling every movement and action of the kids.  I sat in the cart and waited patiently while this was going on.  If everybody had been playing on a 4 hour pace I'd have been happy to keep my place.  It was a nice day.  To put it in context for you, there didn't appear to be anybody on the tee sheet for at least a half hour before 2 p.m. because the price then was $115.  There were 2 couples booked after 2 p.m. who wanted to play separately.  There were the 2 kids (and dad) who wanted to play separately.  And, there was me.  None of the other pairs wanted me along - and, that's OK by me.  There was another twosome that teed off sometime around 3 p.m. who never caught up.  I doubt the course would have flowed any better if they'd forced us to play as a foursome and a threesome.  I've never had a problem with being paired up when a course is busy and the flow of players is an issue.

You played golf on a warmer-than-usual sunny day. I read your thread and expected to hear you returned from a golf trip to find a beloved pet or family member had died and instead... this.

I don't think it would be appropriate to come on here and announce the death of a pet or a family member.  You're taking this way too much to heart.  Sorry if the maintenance comments offended you, but there are bound to sometimes be some differences of opinion between the maintenance staff such as you and the paying customers such as me.

BTW, I think you've always done a splendid job of presenting SS.  I'll have another chance to see the week after next.

[Bryan Izatt]

January 1st in Montana is nothing like that...so stop your whining and bitching.  Happy New Year.

It ain't like this in Toronto either - that's why I'm in Florida.  And, I can bitch and complain if I want.  It's called critical comment.  Happy New Year to you too.   

[John Kavanaugh]

January 1st in Montana is nothing like that...so stop your whining and bitching.  Happy New Year.

It ain't like this in Toronto either - that's why I'm in Florida.  And, I can bitch and complain if I want.  It's called critical comment.  Happy New Year to you too.   

That explains why you weren't watching football. Yelling at kids for being on your lawn isn't critical comment.

[Bryan Izatt]

Re the question of the value of tee times, I'd just observe that the value is a question of supply and demand.  If there is no demand there is zero value.  In this case there were 7 tee times (for 28 people) available between 2 and 3 pm at the reduced rate of $84.  If you started at 3 pm you'd have to hustle (3 hour round) to finish before dark.  There were 9 people in total who were willing to fork out $84 to play in that hour.  There were no others.  So 19 tee times were worth zero dollars to the owners.  How the 9 people were grouped during that hour had no impact on the value of the tee times.  From a pace of play point of view playing as twosomes or as a single, nobody should have a problem finishing before dark.

Re the differences in the UK, it is my (more limited than Paul's) experience that many courses only allow 2 balls in the early tee times.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

It was all relative to the end of 2014.  Hot, sunny golf, even on too green overseeded grass is not too hard to take in January.      I enjoyed playing a few holes with the couple too - they were nice people.  I would have finished with them if they hadn't run away.

The bad part was the  parenting of the boys.  It reminded me of coaching minor hockey when a parent took over a dressing room of 5 and 6 year olds to harangue them about winning and fighting for the puck and being aggressive.  Too many parents are obsessed with trying to make their kids into world class athletes when they're very young.  It sets me off, I guess. 

 

Bryan-If I had to wager I would say that the father is effectively driving them farther away from the game with each outing resembling the one you described. I find it odd that he didn't play along with them.

Tim,

I'm not so surprised he wasn't playing with them.  Parents often try to live vicariously through their children doing things they were not capable of.  Maybe he's not as good as his kids currently are.  Or, maybe he can't give them his full attention and direction if he's playing too.  I do wonder why he would get the kids involved in golf if he didn't play.

[Bryan Izatt]

John,

Never understood Americans' obsession with college $ports.  But, I do know that Oregon and Ohio State won.  Saw some of the end of the Oregon game at CPK at dinner.  My wife really didn't understand the whooping and cheering by other patrons.

I don't recall yelling at the kids.  I merely told them to have fun.  The thoughts about the greens and the parenting fall into the critical commentary category for me.

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe he couldn't afford three green fees and let his children play in place of him.  It's tough to know exactly what to do when raising children but a father paying to much attention is rarely the worst option. On the 1st I was at the sports book at the Wynn and came home on the 2nd to find beer bottles in my neighbors yard. This guy golfing with his kids sounds like a top self dude to me.

[Greg Chambers]

Bryan,

I take umbrage with your comments on the maintenance. For starters, your observation that the green was not cut all the way out to the perimeter as sloppy is full-bore ignorance of common and accepted golf maintenance practices. Nobody cuts the perimeter every day, and this is especially true and critical with triplex mowers. 

Count me as ignorant then.  I am now enlightened.  I've played a good many courses in 57 years of playing and I've seen very few cut like these greens were, so I'd question how common a practice it is.  But, then, I'm ignorant.  

I have played Streamsong a number of times and I doubt that you would ever present the greens this way or at this speed at any time.

The presentation of these greens was sloppy in my opinion.

Second, you were playing on New Year's Day, a holiday. It's likely the crew was a skeleton crew, if they even mowed at all. It's also possible that half the staff didn't bother to show up. You get what you get on a day like that.

Yes, I guessed that there was either no crew or a skeleton staff on New Year's day.  As to "you get what you get", the course asking full price and a premium price so I expect, as a customer to get something akin to quality to match the price charged that day.  Nobody said the greens weren't cut, or weren't totally cut when they took my green fee.  

Pretty amazing that for the first time in your 57 year golf career you caught a course on an off maintenance day....that must be some sort of record.

[Curtis Woods]

Didn't any of you read Ran's Dec. 22 directive, which stated, among other things:

"There is a host of reasons why threads will be deleted but primarily it will be a lack of relevance to the study of golf course architecture. . . the spotlight is on golf architecture, not yourself."

I would think this includes belly-aching about greens in the dead of winter, and whining about a father playing with his kids -- on Jan.1, for God's sake -- and giving a blow by blow description of you and your "accompanying" wife playing a few holes, and telling us about everything the you did as well as the players in front of you did.

Geeez!

[Sean_A]

Pairing up on the 1st tee is largely a matter of common sense.  I prefer not to piflay with complete strangers if we are a 2ball, but if it is obvious that we are going nowhere, I would much rather play as 4.  If I have space to move, forget it...I don't want to be paired because quite simply, Kyle is wrong.  Two 2balls should move quicker than a 4ball...and this becomes incrementally more the case the harder the course is.  His efficiency argument relates to money which is fine if the course is crowded.  If the course is as Bryan said, there is no reason or benefit to pairing up...its poor customer service if you ask me.  I spose this is why its very important to have a thinking guy in charge of times. 

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Not sure I am wrong simply because a four-ball starting at the same time will, by necessity of the game, finish at the same time. Consecutive two-ball group add more stop/start points, especially at the green-to-tee off transition, and there is a necessary delay in waiting for the group in front to clear. Flow is about getting people in and out in the most efficient manner possible.

My major issue was that Bryan sought the tee time behind the groups of twosomes on the tee sheet, and then assumed something of those groups in front. Six players had to get through the golf course that afternoon, and with their being the cap of sunset, the most effective way would have been for one of those groups to make a foursome behind the twosome.

As in traffic situations in your car, often times what appears to be best way from the driver's standpoint is not the best way as far as the system is concerned.

I do notice, however, an increase in the practice of not allowing a faster match/group to play through. At a golf course I really enjoy playing, I've had the experience numerous times of being told to jump from the 8th tee to the 11th tee in order to get in front of a group holding my own group back, instead of simply playing through the group. So with that, I can relate a bit to Bryan's frustrations.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Pairing up on the 1st tee is largely a matter of common sense.  I prefer not to piflay with complete strangers if we are a 2ball, but if it is obvious that we are going nowhere, I would much rather play as 4.  If I have space to move, forget it...I don't want to be paired because quite simply, Kyle is wrong.  Two 2balls should move quicker than a 4ball...and this becomes incrementally more the case the harder the course is.  His efficiency argument relates to money which is fine if the course is crowded.  If the course is as Bryan said, there is no reason or benefit to pairing up...its poor customer service if you ask me.  I spose this is why its very important to have a thinking guy in charge of times. 

Ciao

Absolutely.

As a matter of course, I try to avoid 4-balls. I haven't the time or patience.

Pleasant once in a while when the company is particularly good. But for the golf, less so.

[Brent Hutto]

A fourball playing as two better-ball teams can be quite fun and play briskly as long as they pick up when the hole is decided.

But four players each pretending they are in the US Friggin' Open and wanting to putt everything out, line up their alignment mark on the ball when putting for a seven and all that nonsense is excruciating to anyone used to play in 3-4 hours.

There's no way to win if you show up at a public or resort course and are either paired up or stuck behind three other players who are intent on taking 4-1/2 hours or more to grind their way around the course. Of the two options, the less objectionable to me is "stuck behind". At least when I'm killing time behind them I can do a little chipping, play two balls or find some way to amuse myself for 5-10 minutes on every hole. Being paired up into a group like that requires acting polite while doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for great gobs of time. Yuck.

It's one reason why some of spend more money than we reasonably ought to devote to golf playing at private clubs.