News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
A Bad Start to the New Year
« on: January 03, 2015, 12:14:48 AM »
A couple of weeks ago I made the journey down to sunny  and warm Florida and enjoyed some good golf architecture on the way.

From the first stop at Pinehurst to play the brown Dormie Club in a cold torrential downpour (for the first five holes)




with this beautiful pond in winter (not in play)





........ and onwards to the Country Club of Brunswick with its wondrous Rossian greens.





............. and on to Brooksville for World Woods and the Pine Barrens, one of tom Fazio's gems.


.............  and on to the Steve Smyers' modern golden age design at Twin Eagles.


2014 ended on a golfing architecture up note




But then January 1 rolled around and I had an afternoon tee time at Raptor Bay, a "Ray Floyd" designed resort course.  I've played here a number of times in past years and enjoyed the course and always appreciated the greens as fast and true. So, I booked a tee time at 2:20 p.m. for myself with my wife walking/riding with me (because her back is bad).  I purposely booked an open slot not wanting to join up with the two twosomes who had booked the preceding two tee times.  I figured that they'd play quickly in the interest of finishing before dark or that they'd let me through if they were slow or that I'd go around them if I wasn't invited to play through.

So, arrived at the tee a bit early at the same time as the 2 pm group - a couple, and the 2:10 group - two young kids (like 7 years old) and their non-playing father; and another couple who'd been a late addition to my 2:20 time.  The 2:00 pm couple took off - they definitely wanted to be first and before the two kids.

The father with the two kids said they were definitely going next because the kids were playing forward tees and were tournament golfers so it wasn't going to be a problem.  The 7 year old - dressed like a pro - said to all that he could certainly play well and had just shot a 41 for nine.  Kind of arrogant, I thought.

The other couple were very nice but suggested I go on my own as the wife had only played for 6 months and would be intimidated playing with someone else.  But, they were fast - they usually played in 3.5 hours.  I was OK with playing alone in front, but the starter said no way - they'd have to go first.  The couple insisted I go first.  The starter relented.  I asked if the course was open in front of the first couple because there were few cars in the lot.  I figured I could start on 2 or 3 and catch up the holes at the end.  The starter was adamant that wasn't going to happen.  I would run into a wall of people right away.  (Turned out there were at least open holes in front and probably more).

So, I tee off after the two tournament tykes and their dad.  I sit in the fairway with my drive.  The kids had really good swings, but, they played in order, and only played when their dad discussed the line of play with them and got them aligned and commented on the results, and filled their divots.  Same procedure after their second shots and on their chips on to the green.  On the green, he read each kids putt in turn and walked along the line gesturing how the putt was going to break.  Kid 1 comes up 30 feet short on a 60 foot putt.  I could here the whining from 100 yards away.  The second kid misses too and bends over and holds his head.  They putt out everything, of course.  In order, marking each.

My wife, who was walking is already complaining that she can't walk this slow.  I figure we'll give them one more hole and then I'll go around.  The first couple is already a hole ahead.

The 2nd was a par 3.  I arrived just as the left the tee.  No notice from them.  Fortunately they were close to the green, so the whole chipping/ putting process didn't take too long.  The dad waved to me, acknowledging that he knew I was there.  The couple behind us was on us.  I birdied the hole, so was at the next tee quickly.  They had gotten out of driving range, so I drove away.  Then dad went through the same prolonged process of aligning their shots and describing the play they should make.  Same process on the green, still walking each line and marking the path for them.  By this point my wfe had walked forward and was way off to the side of the green.  Dad apparently told my wife that I could play through on the next hole - another par 3.

This is one of the saddest things I've seen on a golf course in a long time.  I haven't seen such an obsessive parent since I coached minor hockey a long time ago.  Kids being taught to play tournament gold at 7 years old by an obsessive dad.  Trying to make another Rory or Tiger.  And, paying $84 each to do it on a fairly tough golf course in the middle of other people playing for fun.  And, the kids didn't even seem to be having fun.  How truly sad.

I played through.  Thanked them and said "Have fun".  Butchered the hole. 

On the next hole, the couple behind us had caught up because they skipped the par 3 and asked if they could join us.  I said sure.  They played the rest of the front nine with us - quickly.  The wife completely melted down with performance anxiety over me watching.  My wife suffers the same way and tried to talk to her.  Me, I didn't care, they played quickly.  They decided to play the 1st nine over because by then we were catching up to the lead couple.  There were at least three open holes in front of them and they were playing relatively fast.  So, there was no wall to run into, as the starter had warned.

I walked the back nine and s stayed comfortably behind the lead couple.  We finished in 3.75 hours.

Now as to  the course, I noticed as we drove in that the grass siding the road was the brightest emerald green I'd ever seen.  I thought it might have been painted, it was so bright.  The whole course was overseeded and consequently quite green and quite soggy.  There were some ground game opportunities in the design but absolutely no possibility of using them. 

The greens looked kind of barren in spots where it looked like the overseed didn't work too well.  The greens had been cut but in swathes that stopped short of the edges.  And, they hadn't bothered to do the last path around the perimeter.  Totally sloppy mowing job.  And they were cut long - maybe 5 or 6 on the stimp and very grainy to boot.  It was so slow that I putted with some speed down a 4.5* slope and had the ball stop halfway down.  Just hopeless when they're charging full price for the experience.

I'll not be back this year.

Really so sad about dad's teaching kids the wrong way to play at that early age.  but, maybe that's how the superstars of tomorrow are created.



noonan

Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2015, 01:02:43 AM »
You were able to golf. Great start to the new year. Just some trying circumstances.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015, 07:24:51 AM »
Too bad about that sit.

On the other hand...lots of bushwhacking has been done at Dormie!  I might even find my ball in there!  Likely my favorite hole on the course,moo good shots needed there.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 08:09:50 AM »
Not sure why you're complaining about the dad, Bryan. Sounds like he knows the correct way to prepare his kids for competitive youth golf.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 08:40:25 AM »
The wife completely melted down with performance anxiety over me watching.  My wife suffers the same way and tried to talk to her. 


You must be quite intimidating.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2015, 09:43:11 AM »
had a somewhat similar experience.  Playing as a twosome behind a twosome.  All in carts.  The twosome ahead are quire good.  Father and son, about 55 and 35.  Unfortunately, we were waiting on every shot.  They had open holes but did not ask if we wanted to play through and I will seldom ask.

We get to the par 5, 7th, the son blasts a shot just short of the green on his second.  My drive is about 75 yards behind his.  The father than proceeds to review the shot, give a lesson, etc  while we wait.. I finally drove up and politely requested that he not give lessons while others are waiting.  With a bit, but not out of control, chip he asked if we would like to play through.  We did but skipped the rest of the hole as did not want to hold them up.

My question is simple.  Was it in poor etiquette to request that they not give lessons while others are waiting?  Is there a better way of handling this?

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 09:58:08 AM »
When I was a kid I bemoaned the old stuffy veterans at my club, at least at first. Most of them had seen active service in the war and subsequently had a certain military officiousness about them. As I grew up and got to know them I realised that all they ever wanted was for each and every golfer to get on with things, to respect the etiquette laid down in the rule book and to avoid, at all costs, any kind of behaviour which could be interpreted as self indulgent. Any kind of what they might call "dilly-dallying" would be met with a stern telling off. Once administered, no grudge was held. I learnt from them. We all learnt from them. Golf could do with a few of them rising from their graves!

Golf has had a tough time. There is an over supply of courses at present. Unfortunately, that's the perfect storm for people to get away with whatever the hell they like, just so long as they cough up the cash.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2015, 10:00:45 AM »
Jerry,

Indeed, it was sunny, warm and I was golfing. I could have been in the cold, snow and dark of home.  The sidelights certainly made things more interesting.


Matt,

It was my first time at Dormie, so not sure what it looked like before, but it certainly looked like the undergrowth was whacked down in many places.  Or, maybe it's just winter conditions.  After the rain it might have been a bit soggy to find the ball in the whacked down bush.  As the only person on the course I would have had the time to look.


Mark,

Not sure if your tongue is in your cheek or not, but if that is the proper way to raise children at that age, to be prepared for competitive anything, then I am  really saddened for the children.  It seems like a poor way to prepare children for life, but that's just me.  


Bill,

Nah, I'm just a big teddy bear.  But for an old guy I play OK and to  a beginning woman it probably looks like a very good golf game.  Many women who try to play golf don't want to be seen playing by other players, especially men, because they feel that their game is inadequate.  They think other people are watching and judging them and they are not good enough.  They have egos too.  

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2015, 10:36:22 AM »
I agree with you Bryan.  My Dad took me to the range and to the course growing up, but never hovered over me.  I became a good golfer and played competitively for a long time and  I might have become a slightly better player if he micromanaged me.

But I still love to play the game and I think this is because he never pressured me. I have many friends who played high level college golf who hung up their sticks after graduating.  They were extraordinarily good, but didn't love it.  It's hard to love game when Dad is reading your putts...

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2015, 10:39:52 AM »
I'm reminded of the female tennis players that struggle at Wimbledon, not because of the grass but because daddy isn't allowed on court to coach them there. Surely, an essential element in any kids golf development is learning to manage his ir her own game, rather than waiting for direction.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2015, 12:12:26 PM »
Bryan,

I take umbrage with your comments on the maintenance. For starters, your observation that the green was not cut all the way out to the perimeter as sloppy is full-bore ignorance of common and accepted golf maintenance practices. Nobody cuts the perimeter every day, and this is especially true and critical with triplex mowers. 

Second, you were playing on New Year's Day, a holiday. It's likely the crew was a skeleton crew, if they even mowed at all. It's also possible that half the staff didn't bother to show up. You get what you get on a day like that.

Third, complaining about pace of play while engaging in one of the most abysmal practices for golf course flow (not combining consecutive twosomes into foursomes), is rather trite especially coming on the heels of calling the younger golfer arrogant.

You played golf on a warmer-than-usual sunny day. I read your thread and expected to hear you returned from a golf trip to find a beloved pet or family member had died and instead... this.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2015, 12:18:23 PM »
This old chestnut........

Kyle,

If you book a two ball, is it not reasonable to expect to play as a two ball? Do you think golfers should pay their money and just settle for their place on the cattle truck?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 01:02:29 PM »
Paul Gray,

No.

You're booking two spots in a slot where four are available. Foursomes are the most efficient way to move golfers around a golf course. If you want the whole slot, pay for the whole slot.

But then again, I just learned this as a young golfer at our local muni, maybe if my dad didn't just drop me off and tell me not to make a fool of him I would know different......
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 01:08:15 PM »
Paul Gray,

No.

You're booking two spots in a slot where four are available. Foursomes are the most efficient way to move golfers around a golf course. If you want the whole slot, pay for the whole slot.

But then again, I just learned this as a young golfer at our local muni, maybe if my dad didn't just drop me off and tell me not to make a fool of him I would know different......

Well, if I'm paying five quid at the local muni I'm happy to wait my turn on the conveyor belt. If I'm paying $84, please allow me the privilege of my own 8 minute window which isn't packed to capacity.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 01:11:16 PM »
That 8 minute window is worth $336, no $84.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 01:24:36 PM »
That 8 minute window is worth $336, no $84.

Jees, fair play to you I suppose for being prepared to be so frank about it. I wonder why uptake of the game has fallen off.

Still, if you make it absolutely clear that the ship won't sail until the cash register has hit the magic figure, more foul to those that decide to fork out for such an uncivilised second rate service in cattle class, despite paying for a bit first class prices. I trust, once they've paid there annual dues, you treat your members with contempt. After all, you've got there money. There's a mark on every corner.   

I just prefer golf clubs to golf businesses.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2015, 01:29:12 PM »
Is a course who's asking $336 per tee time any less accommodating to new golfers than a private golf club? I don't know anyone who joined a golf club before they already knew how to golf.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2015, 01:36:38 PM »
Is a course who's asking $336 per tee time any less accommodating to new golfers than a private golf club? I don't know anyone who joined a golf club before they already knew how to golf.

Joe

I just find this mercenary approach utterly cheap and nasty. A tee time can have a maximum of four players in it. When did that maximum also become a minimum? But hey, like I said, if it's advertised as such and people are happy to pay, more foul them. Clearly Bryan wasn't aware of this well documented policy.

And actually, you can join my private club as an absolute beginner and get free lessons to boot. Thereafter, you can have as many one ball outings as you like for zero extra cost.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 01:44:42 PM »
Paul,

I would love to join your club.

I also would love to play Pebble Beach from time to time, with or without the extra nuisances of being paired or added expense.

And, whatever falls in-between. Perhaps I need higher standards so as to be a little harder to please.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2015, 01:48:39 PM »
Bryan thought seeing a father out with his children on a golf course was the worst thing he had ever seen because of the manner he was instructing his children. It's like shutting down a soup kitchen because they put the spoon on the wrong side of the bowl.

I made a New Years resolution to not insult pompous golfers who think they have the right to demand the game come to them rather than take the game to the course.  Because of that I won't comment on the rest of the story.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015, 01:49:12 PM »
Paul,

Apologies upfront because I'm going all Mucci.

I would love to join your club.

I'm sure you'd be welcome. If you find yourself near Hayling at any time, please give me a shout.

I also would love to play Pebble Beach from time to time, with or without the extra nuisances of being paired or added expense.

As would I.

And, whatever falls in-between. Perhaps I need higher standards so as to be a little harder to please.

Not really. I find life to be an ongoing series of disappointments.  ;D
Joe
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Steffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015, 05:38:00 PM »
what i take from this is if a dad wants to go out with his boys and have a 'playing lesson day' (for lack of a better term), going out after 2p is fine.  same way if a man and his wife just want to go out as a twosome and kick it around, after 2p is acceptable as well.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2015, 05:51:47 PM »
Just trying to get my arms around this "bad start" to the New year ;) ;)

Playing golf on Jan. 1
3.75 hr round
Playing through a 7 year old twosome
The grass was too green
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 06:16:31 PM »
Jeff,

It was all relative to the end of 2014.  Hot, sunny golf, even on too green overseeded grass is not too hard to take in January.   ;D ;)  I enjoyed playing a few holes with the couple too - they were nice people.  I would have finished with them if they hadn't run away.

The bad part was the  parenting of the boys.  It reminded me of coaching minor hockey when a parent took over a dressing room of 5 and 6 year olds to harangue them about winning and fighting for the puck and being aggressive.  Too many parents are obsessed with trying to make their kids into world class athletes when they're very young.  It sets me off, I guess. 

 

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bad Start to the New Year
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 06:45:34 PM »
Jeff,

It was all relative to the end of 2014.  Hot, sunny golf, even on too green overseeded grass is not too hard to take in January.   ;D ;)  I enjoyed playing a few holes with the couple too - they were nice people.  I would have finished with them if they hadn't run away.

The bad part was the  parenting of the boys.  It reminded me of coaching minor hockey when a parent took over a dressing room of 5 and 6 year olds to harangue them about winning and fighting for the puck and being aggressive.  Too many parents are obsessed with trying to make their kids into world class athletes when they're very young.  It sets me off, I guess. 

 

Bryan-If I had to wager I would say that the father is effectively driving them farther away from the game with each outing resembling the one you described. I find it odd that he didn't play along with them.