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George_Bahto

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Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« on: August 31, 2003, 10:21:12 PM »
On another thread we were speaking about reversed Road Holes which got me to thinking about that style hole (or green complex) on Macdonald Raynor Banks courses.

So I have a quiz for you Raynor-guys:

On what full 18-hole course (or courses) is there NOT a Road Hole or Road Hole green complex??
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2003, 10:52:34 PM »
I think I should should clarify the question a bit.

Forget the drive - forget the dog-leg - forget the length of the hole (Piping Rock's original Road Hole was way under 400-yards)

.....  because they often did not have those feature(s) on this genre - so just think in terms of the green complex - the green and its requisite bunkering
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

RJ_Daley

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2003, 11:14:22 PM »
I don't think Yeaman's Hall has one that I could point to as a Road Hole green complex.  I think #12 at CC of Charleston might be the road hole sort of style, although not too ferocious of a bunker and I can't remember if there is some feature to suggest a road behind the green.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2003, 11:40:02 PM »
The Road green at Yeamans is the seventh, right after the Redan.  It's a pretty weak copy, but a lot of their Road greens lacked teeth.

Is there one at The Creek?  (The fifth would be a very iffy version at best.)
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2003, 11:47:27 PM »
Tom, do you mean the hole that tees off behind the pond that has the sign "beware of Alligator"?  Boy, I'd have not guessed that as a road hole.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2003, 11:51:24 PM »
Tom - there is one at Creek. It was alway thought that 13 was - again, a weak one but I recently found an article written about Creek describing the holes that said the 1st hole was to be a Road hole - talk about a stretch .......

This question is a bit unfair I think because a lot of these holes have been destroyed by a membership or "restorer" so you can't see them today - I've got a lot of original stuff where these holes show up clearly.

......   so let me narrow the question down a bit. It was not built on one of the best of Macdonald/Raynor courses on Long Island.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2003, 12:19:30 AM »
George,

Duh, I should have thought of the 1st hole ... although some people would identify that as a Redan-type green more than a Road, because of the tilt.  It does have a deep nasty bunker along the rear flank though.

I'll wait to try and identify the missing Road hole until others read this tomorrow.  Is there really only one major course where it's missing?  I would have guessed more, because they didn't really do too many great ones.  I do love the tenth at Mid Ocean; and there's another left-to-right one come to think of it!
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2003, 01:29:33 AM »
Tom: as far as I can tell there is only one major course - no Road Hole

BTW: did you finish all the bunkers at Yeamans Hall? - was down in SC last week but didn't have time to go there - however spent about 3 hrs at the muni near CC of Charleston and did figured out it was Raynor but built after he died by the pro at either Yeamans or CC - /......  where did you (Jimmy?) put the PN bunker on #1 - green side of the road??

It's amazing how poorly, in general, they built the Road holes but I think they were much more concerned with the green complex than with working the entire hole strategy
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Brad Klein

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2003, 05:25:14 AM »
Yale University GC (now called "The Golf Club at Yale") doesn't have a Road Hole bunker anywhere. Of course it did, at the 4th hole, until a distinguished alumnus with no commitment to history or design tradition decided to remove it with the blessing of a prestigious consulting commitee.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2003, 05:26:28 AM by Brad Klein »
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wsmorrison

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2003, 08:40:51 AM »
I have a routing map of The Creek from either 1925 or 1926 by either a "Mr. Nugent or Mr. Raynor" (written in pencil on the back of the linen map).  The drawings do not indicate that 13 was a Road-hole green complex nor was the 1st.  In case the routing progression had changed these are the hole yardages:

1.  380   10.  320
2.  340   11.  220
3.  375   12.  320
4.  160   13.  400
5.  360   14.  420
6.  440   15.  345
7.  520   16.  380
8.  190   17.  130
9.  430   18.  400

This map is in the collection of Flynn materials because Flynn presented a number of changes.  He designed 2 new 16th and 17th holes to be built south of the existing 17th green and 18th tee on land bordering the present course.  Is this land presently or once owned by the club?  These were obviously not enacted.  Flynn also proposed redesigning the 3rd hole and regrading the fairways of 9,12 13, and 14.   There was a prior proposal by S. B. Browne, Engineer to remodel the fairways on January 5, 1928.  Flynn proposed significant moundings and contourings (for example one mound was to be built 30 feet above fairway grade on the left side of 13 fairway not far from the 12th tee) subsequent to the Browne proposal that were not implemented.  I am visiting Shinnecock Hills later in September and hope to stop by The Creek to show them the routing map and the proposed changes and see what, if anything, might have been done.  Since Raynor died in 1926, I guess the club was looking to do some changes and somehow Flynn came into the picture, to what extent if any remains to be determined.  

George or anyone else, can you shed some light on this material?
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JNC Lyon

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2003, 08:51:39 AM »
I do not believe that Fishers Island has a road green. Also, George, is this the Charleston City Golf Course you speak of?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2003, 09:00:10 AM by JNC_Lyon »
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2003, 08:57:46 AM »
I agree with Brad about Yale.  I can see the drive as a Road type, but the green isn't similar at all, too my eye.  Where was the original "Road" bunker on that hole?
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GeoffreyC

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2003, 10:06:58 AM »
Way to go Brad!  In all honesty, the front nine work was done by Roger Rulewich all by his lonesome without the direction of the committee of nine amateurs overseen by Beinecke. In fact, the bunker shown below was the second attempt as the first try had sand flashed up the face (in the Raynor style of course  ::) ) and I believe Paterson (then director of golf) made him redo it.





This was a really intimidating bunker that required sideways or backwards play quite often.  I guess lob wedges have made it too difficult for ivy leaguers.
The committee of amateurs headed by Beinecke took over after I pointed out the butcher job to the front nine. They are responsible with Rulewich for holes 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18. Unfortunately, the best Rulewich can do under the direction of the committee is still butchering the course VERY badly.  I think I will start a triligy of hole by hole documentation of the butchering of Yale shortly.

Paul- I believe the road bunker is in its original location.  The angle of the green was never as severe as St. Andrews (reverse orientation) but mowing patterns of the green have changed. A sad result of this crap is that Rulewich and his bulldozers are eliminating the archeologial remnants of the original work rather then using them.  Even when he didn't have to, he recently bulldozed away evidence of the old green location on #16!  >:(  >:(  :'(  :'(

4th green - 1934- note left greenside bunkers that simulated the road (at a bad angle)

« Last Edit: September 01, 2003, 10:22:46 AM by Geoffrey Childs »
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JC Urbina

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2003, 10:39:27 AM »
George
     I believe that Waialae C.C. in Oahu did not have a road hole.  Many of the other replications I could make out and I even looked at the old BW photo in the club to test myself on what I had found.  But after many revisions by various designers I might be wrong.  I looked at the routing and in  areas that might be visible from the club house or bisecting streets and found no remenants of the road hole.  George after spending time at the Mid Ocean Club this past summer I am now convinced that Macdonald and Raynor placed certain replications of the famous holes in locations that offered maximum view from the public and may have sacrficed the location in the routing for visibility.  But that discussion maybe for another post.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2003, 10:40:23 AM »
Road Hole at Yale - (oh my!):  On many Road holes by CB, SR and Banks the Road hole bunker was often shifted out of the direct line of play because it would have been entirely too hard for the membership (gee - but they would certainly go to St A if they got the chance).

This bunker would be set to the side, often made very large, and quite shallow. This would be the  "representation" of the deep pot bunker.

Let's see aside form NGLA, perhaps the best pot bunker for this hole is at Piping Rock.

There were not just a few of these representations that were actually a long, "greenside left" style bunker but still acted as the frontal-hazard.

Remember Raynor could not always (hah) do what he wanted (unlike Macdonald who ruled the roost when he built a course), Raynor and others (even today) have to do the bidding of a club on many issues - hey, itz their course.

Paul: if the 4th green at Yale was mowed as it was meant to be, the rep. of the pot bunker deepened and repositioned as it was in 1926, the strip bunker behind deepened as they should be, you would have one of the finest Road holes Raynor built - including an awesome drive.

For years everyone thought this hole to be a "cape" hole - (here we go again with the "diagonal drive" routine). A noted architect called the 4th "a great use of a water hazard", thinking, again, it was a Cape.

RR had the sand so flashed up on that greenside bunker the first time around it was ridiculous! Like his mentor. "you had to see the sand" ..........  gee, how many classic courses did they wreck doing that!!!!! - and then they made it very shallow like they "shallowed" the bunkers on the Short, the following hole.     NO CLUE!!!!!!!

I think what RR did on the 4th, first time around (he's done it over twice now, both in the same year - 2 yrs ago?) was what really got all the hub-bub started.

This is/could-be a great Road hole.

Wayne: the reason there was to be some work done at Creek that early is because they actually banished Macdonald from the club right about then (remember he was one of the founders). There were some serious drainage issues on a couple of the low holes and CB presented some ideas, they didn't want to go his way and were searching around for asome answers. Of course Macdonald had an attitude about that and "here we go again" - my man, wearing out his welcome - hey, he was never wrong about anything - hah.

Wayne, see my E-Mail, please.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2003, 11:07:10 AM »
Jimmy - interest post: Here again we have the "concept" problem: what was proposed vs what was built.

I have an original concept drawing of "Royal Hawaiian Golf at Waialae Country Club" with hole by hole descriptions. It reads:    

"Hole 11: 503-yards. Slight dog-leg. Near the edge of the stream and patterened after the famous Road hole at St. Andrews, Scotland."

Did you see that there in any form?  

Funny, this one dimentional drawing could also be interpreted as a two-shot Redan - similar to 12 at Fishers Island.

The original concept drawing for Waialae - especially the fairway bunkering - was very strong and there were tons of strategic bunkers - reminds me of the original bunker setups at Yeamans Hall and also at Lookout Mtn.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

wsmorrison

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2003, 04:35:18 PM »
George,
Got your email and replied.  Let's get together soon.
Best,
Wayne
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wsmorrison

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2003, 04:44:30 PM »
George,

Do you know if the routing progression ever change at The Creek Club?

Wayne
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2003, 05:27:23 PM »
I too am appalled at what is happening at Yale. For those of you that haven't seen the course, you better get out there quick, because even now, since I was last there in June, I have been told things have changed there dramatically.

And that is a sad thing indeed.

Yale--the golf couse left an indelable impression in my mind. I literally lie in bed at night thinking of some of the holes there and how great they must have once been. Right now, they are shadows, or soon to be shadows of former greatness. This is a GREAT golf course that is literally being destroyed by something else other then earth, wind or fire. It is being destroyed by a whole bevy of politics and upheavel, and ultimately there will be NO WINNER. Everyone will suffer the loss of this mind-boggling classic that was never really given a chance by the nincompoops in charge.

Long Live Yale--I'm glad I got to at least see some of it.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2003, 06:07:25 PM »
Wayne: no the routing has neve changed at Creek

Tommy: itz a good thing you've never seen the original construction picture of Yale  -  you'd then really be in trouble - they blew me away and I had seen the Yale course long before the devestation began.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2003, 06:14:41 PM »
I think I'd better answer my own question I posed in this thread  - without a lot of original material it would be hard to come up with the answer


    answer: ....... surprisingly, it is the
 
    Lido course   ..  that does not have a Road Hole

however and hopefully, perhaps there is still enough interest in the Road hole to spur more questions and comments
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2003, 06:52:29 PM »
George, I saw some of the construction photos in the clubhouse, and was blown away by them. however, I want to see yours!

All the more reason why that PROFESSIONAL there at Yale, should get up of his keester and go look at them to see if the work he is overseeng is anything like the original work.
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Bob_Huntley

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2003, 07:23:42 PM »
Ror the life of me, I could find no resemblance to a Road Hole on Raynor/Hunter's MPCC Dunes Course.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2003, 10:06:27 PM »
Bob - if there is one course I have very little info is the Dunes course at MPCC - need some - can you help

as far as why you can't find anything resembling a Road there may be two fold: one, Raynor and Banks never did finish the course and if there was one there originally, I'm sure it was altered over the years.

Raynor and Banks also had the contract for the Shore course at MPCC as well as four others on the Monterey Pen. - lost them when Raynor died.

BTW: if there are any of you who can help me getting  material on the Dunes course I would appreciate it.

I spoke to Rees one day before he worked there and he was looking to get info on what a Biarritz was all about)
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

BCrosby

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Re:Question: Road Holes on Macdonald Raynor courses
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2003, 08:58:34 AM »
Tom Doak -

What is the status of the changes/restoration of the Road Hole (no. 1) at Mid-O?

Any other updates of restoration efforts there would be appreciated.

Bob
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