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Jeff_Brauer

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What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« on: December 30, 2014, 10:47:14 AM »
I have been in a Facebook exchange with Melyvn Morrow.  Near as I can tell, he wants golf to go a different direction, summarized below:

Modern architects don’t understand the history of the game as fully as they should, and their designs go astray
Golf Courses should be as penal as they were pre 1900, specifically instituting hazards that defeat the aerial game,
Keep golf a walking only game
Eliminate distance devices and improved equipment
Go back as much as possible to firm and fast.

I offer these for discussion if you want. There are two more ideas of his that I will post separately in a moment, because I truly believe they fit the category of interesting topics we haven't discussed here.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

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Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2014, 10:59:14 AM »
I'll bite.
What is a hazard that defeats the aerial game?

In many ways I think golf would be better on a smaller scale so I'll listen to melvyn's thoughts
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2014, 11:05:58 AM »
In what ways do designs go astray? Why should I care if someone else doesn't want to walk the golf course? What is "improved equipment"? Should we go back to sticks and rocks? The feathery? Balata?

I like firm and fast, and I think that movement is already underway and will inevitably grow in coming years. I also have been compelled lately by the idea of more penal courses and features.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2014, 11:35:32 AM »
Guys, I just try to post his thoughts in something less than 1000 words so anyone can understand.  Not saying I agree.

His newest contention is that "Money has corrupted Golf."  Another interesting discussion point, but as far as I can tell, that goes back to Old Tom, the Scots who came to America just because they couldn't make enough at it in Scotland, etc.  I told him, if he wants to place blame for the direction of American golf due to profit, we may as well start and end it there.  Those Scots were professionals and architects and did what they did.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 12:55:33 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2014, 11:41:35 AM »
A hazard that defeats the aerial game is not a hazard as we know it. It would begin with fast/firm conditions. Balls don't grab and spin to a stop as easily as they do over lush conditions (but this is common knowledge.)
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 11:50:16 AM »
Cart part design to speed play.

What laser?
Cave Nil Vino

Paul Gray

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Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 11:53:34 AM »
Well, certainly the argument that money corrupts artistic integrity isn't exactly new. It's also an argument I have a great deal of sympathy for. I'm not sure there was much artistic integrity going on when the high ground was being used for expensive housing and golf was being relegated to the adjoining swamp.

But I'm not really sure where this broadest of thread titles is going or why Melvyn isn't raising such topics. Yes, there is something of a renaissance at present as lessons are learnt the hard way. And what?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2014, 12:11:55 PM »
For those unfamiliar with our former GCA treehouse resident...

Melvyn, part one: http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/mhm1/

Melvyn, part two: http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/mhmpart2/

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

Golf as a walking-only game.

Nice notion. You can't legislate something like this. You'll sooner legislate away vice foods and beverages than carts. Not only is it impossible, it's also exclusionary, as it eliminates those without capacity or fitness from the game. I can't proceed further without laughing at the hilarity of this argument: I won't budge and neither will Melvyn. As a result, not worth my digital ink.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2014, 12:17:55 PM »
Seems to me that a hazard to defeat the aerial game would be a tree in front of the green.  But, even the old Scots Melvyn professes we should get back to their ways hated trees on a golf course.

We probably surmise that they weren't used to them on the old links, and that influenced their view, but it seems that Ross and others who emigrated from Scotland wrote you should never stop an airborne shot.  I guess you could argue that they were considering just how hard it was to get a shot in the air, and maybe now that that is easier, that they would have changed their stance?  Séance anyone?

Paul,

Yes, money probably has corrupted the original essence of old Scots hitting it around after work.  I guess at one point, golf was like backyard basketball to many of the early golfers.  

Which brings the question of when did TOC or other early links first charge a greens fee, making it a money driven operation?

After that, like clubs and balls, we all can draw our own line as to when the money that drives golf forward is either "too much" or detrimental.  Did Arnie being the first to win $100K in a year hurt golf?  The first to top a million in a year?  Which dues level or greens fee ruined golf, and when?

While I understand the mindset of the anti money thing, the way of the world is that they had to make money to survive and make more money to prosper.  Even Old Tom did, and got into a dispute with others trying to improve the ball because it took away his livelihood. Is it any different now, or have the numbers just changed?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2014, 12:24:43 PM »
I think Melvyn believes that anything he does not agree with corrupts golf. I like the guy and he and I  have had numerous discussions about his thoughts but I think he has a laser like defintion of what is good from the game.

Money, lasers, carts, distance guides etc all fall under the list of whats wrong with the game. I had a knee replacement last year and his idea was to rest up until you could walk, needless to say i strongly disagree.

He is also hung up on the " ground fit for the game" . while I love links golf there are a bunch of great inland courses we all love to play. Philly is ripe with courses that fit into our local landscapes.

I love the guy but he is less flexible than my wife. :o
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Sam Morrow

Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2014, 12:27:35 PM »
Aren't trees a hazard for the aerial game?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2014, 12:30:40 PM »
It's rather sad he's clearly still addicted to GCA and complaining he "doesn't have a voice on GCA" and has asked another to post on his behalf. I thought he'd left on his own accord.
Cave Nil Vino

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2014, 12:34:28 PM »

After that, like clubs and balls, we all can draw our own line as to when the money that drives golf forward is either "too much" or detrimental.  


Exactly. Indeed we can......and should. Otherwise, the nonsensical conclusion is to write off everything ever time we can't have perfection. It's the "someone is going to deal the drugs anyway so it might as well be me" argument. Higher standards for GCA...... ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2014, 12:38:50 PM »
Modern equipment makes the game easier, make it any harder than it already is and the numbers dwindle even more...imo

I can certainly cope with playing the equipment I grew up with Persimoons and baldes but they do make it alot harder.
The ball...I am all for limiting the distance factor, but maintaining the duarability of the modern ball for the reasons of expense to the average player.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2014, 12:41:17 PM »
If he could only see that there are hundreds of people who consider that there are golfers.....even though they are legless. Try telling them that they are not playing golf.

I met this chap once and found him inspirational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader

Bob
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 05:40:36 PM by Bob_Huntley »

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 12:54:46 PM »
If he could only see that there are hundreds of people who consider that they are golfers.....even though they are legless. Try telling them that they are not playing golf.

I met this chap once and found him inspirational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader

Bob
Bob, 
        Sir Douglas Bader was one of the great RAF heroes in The Battle of Britain. I read his autobiography years ago- what a life well lived!
                                   Hope all is well in Carmel,    Jack

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 01:11:14 PM »
If golf wasn't so expensive or difficult the courses would be so crowded that no one would play.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 01:11:45 PM »
If he could only see that there are hundreds of people who consider that they are golfers.....even though they are legless. Try telling them that they are not playing golf.

I met this chap once and found him inspirational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader

Bob

To be fair to Melvyn's perspective, he has never had a problem with a cart for medical necessity.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 01:13:59 PM »
It's rather sad he's clearly still addicted to GCA and complaining he "doesn't have a voice on GCA" and has asked another to post on his behalf. I thought he'd left on his own accord.

Mark, to be fair, it was my decision.  I found a few nuggets I felt would be worth discussing, under the recent post of "what's left to discuss."  He didn't ask me.

JK, shouldn't you be posting under your real name, Yogi Berra? LOL  Or, maybe WC Fields, because you wouldn't be a member of any club that would have you as a member?  LOL
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 01:39:56 PM »
Like others, I have always appreciated Melvyn and his perspective, precisely because it flies in the face of prevailing/conventional wisdom. His is an important point of view - a sole Scottish Socratic Gadfly challenging the Great Ran City-State of GCA.COM.

That said, I think he fails to make a fundamental distinction, i.e. that between the game as game and the game as experience. We all know how golf as a game came to be: walkers walking windswept linksland with only their eyes to guide them and with the goal of steering clear of vast blown-out hazards using implements uniquely ill-suited to the task. Yes, that's the game of golf, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, worlds wthout end.

But the experience of golf -- which of course is better termed the experience of golfers -- is, and must be, and will be despite all the protestations of the old prophets of purity, as varied and changing and fickle and ego-fuelled as the millions upon millions of golfers past and present are in themselves, fallen creatures in a fallen world who want and insist that the game serve them and not that they serve the game.

We are a stubborn people, modern-day golfers, and soft around the middles and pudgy, wobbly legged from all our sedentary office duties and shaky of hand from the liquor we insist on downing before, during and after our rounds; and Melvyn is the stern ascetic, a sole voice crying out in the wilderness for us to repent -- but alas, we are in the main heedless of this man (not in animal skins, surely, or eating locusts and honey -- I hope in a nice tweed jacket and comfortable corduroy pants)  who thunders loudly on behalf of the game as game.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 01:43:27 PM by PPallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2014, 01:43:22 PM »
I don't mind playing with novices but pair me with a cheap novice and I'd rather stay at the bar.  What came first in the ancient Scottish traditions, cheapness or walking?  They seem intertwined in the modern game.

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2014, 01:46:47 PM »
Bunker sand that causes balls to plug would eliminate the aerial game a bit. 

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2014, 02:04:33 PM »
I've had many discussions with Melvyn as well via Facebook, and I respect his passion for the "purest" form of the game.  And on mist counts, his ideals lean towards what many of us would also hold up as ideals.  Where I part ways from Melvyn is in his rigidity in accepting anything less than ideal.  Unfortunately, in some cases, the fight for ideal simply isn't conducive to the reality for where people live (e.g. if you live in Upstate New York, you can't have firm and fast year round given the spring/fall and lack of pure sandy ground, so you accept the inherent limitations and embrace what you can).

But looking at Melvyn's points, many do have merit from an architectural standpoint, but it's never as black & white as portrayed:

Hazards to Defeat the Aerial Game -  I imagine Melvyn meant firm and fast greens with appropriate slopes to eliminate a sloppily planned approach, where you could come in from any angle.  Of course that's a reasonable thought and I don't like it when I "get away with" some poor tee shots via today's technology.  Firm & fast goes a long way towards demanding more thought.

But at the same time, I accept that trees (or "aerial bunkers" if I remember VKmetz's name for them), can achieve the same purpose, especially in areas where it's not possible to maintain F&F year round.  A well-positioned specimen tree can provide plenty of interest and fun (and potential for creative shotmaking). But like everything else in life, people need to find a balance between the extreme positions held.  Sometimes trees work, sometimes they are hideous blights.  Sometimes a treeless landscape works, sometimes it eliminates the importance of control of the tee.  

Distance Devices - I'm fine with the thought and sometimes wish I hadn't grown up thinking you needed a number.  After learning some of the visual tricks architects use to deceive players, it's a shame to see that art negated by an "answer key" in your hand.  I guess that's part of the reason I enjoy blind shots and extreme elevation change, since they go a long way towards making the game more multi-dimensional than simply dialing up a number.  But if others want to use them, more power to them.  They can speed up play for some, and I've never felt like someone else having an exact number has given them an extreme advantage over me.

Pre-1900 Penal Hazards - Have their place at times, but I think there's so many creative ways of imposing penalties, that focusing on only the most severe hazards misses out.  Awkward stances, elevation changes, short grass as a hazard, visual uncertainty, etc. all can negate the advances of technology without the "all or nothing" types of hazards.  I'll always want recovery possibilities to be part of the game, rather than an steady dose of "take your medicine" every time.


Ultimately, the game we love can take on so many forms, all reflecting some mythical "pure form" to some extent. I get the sense that Melvyn takes on the pre-existential approach, appealing to the perfect and focusing so much attention on what is missing or less than perfect.  I'm more satisfied to embrace the elements that do reflect the form, but not worry so much about purity.   

Bob_Huntley

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Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2014, 02:10:56 PM »
Kevin,

He may well have said that he approves of carts for the disabled but with the caveat that it is not golf.

Bob

BHoover

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Re: What's Left to Discuss - Best Melvyn Morrow Questions
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2014, 02:16:24 PM »
I agree with many of his principles and ideas (not all, particularly the range finder issue which I think speeds up play), but his style and his refusal to consider other points of view are what make me want to ignore him. If I recall, didn't he choose to leave the group? Now he sits back on Facebook and criticizes us? Why even give him an audience? I will admit that his posts were must-reads because they were train wrecks. The comedy value alone was worth the price of admission.