[Stephen Pellegrino]

While most on this site would agree that there are a number of great holes with bunkers that are surrounded by fairway, can this gambit be overused on a single course? The obvious answer is that it all depends on how the various bunkers are designed, placed and shaped. The variety of this type of bunker at TOC makes their use a thing of wonder, but on a parkland course is the risk of "over doing it" higher than it would be on a links course (in general)? What if the course in question is a 1910s-1920s Donald Ross restoration?

-Stephen

[Paul Gray]

I fear you may have just invited the wolves to dinner.

[Thomas Dai]

There's also the related matter that bunkers 'within' the fairway on modern-ish inland courses are frequently surrounded by collars of rough, a feature, the collar of rough that is, that I for one don't think much of.
Atb

[Paul Gray]

But as a little comment in defence of your assertion, Trump Scotland could well be a poster child for exactly what you're referring to.

But as Thomas has just said, you can easily ruin the intended strategy, if you so wish, by growing hideous rough around your cross bunkers, making them almost impossible to put a ball in. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

What if the course in question is a 1910s-1920s Donald Ross restoration?

-Stephen

Relating to our discussion in the Whitinsville thread, many courses don't seem to bother with fairway restoration. It makes no sense to me to restore centerline hazards without widening fairways and chopping down trees. It's like, "Thanks to this restoration we now have two bowling alleys to play down instead of one!" 

[RJ_Daley]

Steve, I think your question is anticipating an answer I would also concur with.  Mid FW bunkers in LZs that split FWs to two different angles of attack to the green can be greatly overdone on courses where the occurrence is not born of natural terrain characteristics.  It works in dunesland and sand hill or links courses where blow-outs naturally exists.  

But, is there anything more ugly that the sort of squiggly freeflow artsy fartsy bunkering that might be found on a flattish Myrtle Beach course, or other parkland course where the mid FW hazard is added as gimmick?   I don't mind seeing one or two tastefully done ones on any course.  But it seems the archies that place them in frilly and showy settings are going more for the gimmick and overdo them, IMHO.  And, nothing is worse than one of these long frilly mid FW bunkers that doesn't drain well!!!!

I also agree with your observation of making two bowling lanes out of one... 

[jeffwarne]

beats the hell out of a fairway surrounded by bunkers?

[Frank M]

Absolutely love bunkers in fairways when they are called for. The terrain should dictate what is and isn't called for.

HATE with a passion bunkers in middle of fairways with collars of rough surrounding them. My biggest pet peeve.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Absolutely love bunkers in fairways when they are called for. The terrain should dictate what is and isn't called for.

HATE with a passion bunkers in middle of fairways with collars of rough surrounding them. My biggest pet peeve.

Frank,

I couldn't agree more and I don't understand the thinking behind that maintainance practice

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Gray,

Not having seen Trump Scotland, I can't comment on how that feature works or is over used.

But, I can comment on Streamsong, where bunkers surrounded by fairway are in abundance and where they work quite well.

# 3, # 6, # 11 and # 18 Blue come quickly to mind.

All holes work well, probably because of the ample width and variety in the holes.

# 4, # 9, # 11 Red also work well.

But, I wonder, if Donald Trump owned Streamsong and Mosaic owned Trump Scotland, if you'd feel the same way 

[Daniel Jones]

Paul Gray,

But, I can comment on Streamsong, where bunkers surrounded by fairway are in abundance and where they work quite well.

# 3, # 6, # 11 and # 18 Blue come quickly to mind.

All holes work well, probably because of the ample width and variety in the holes.

# 4, # 9, # 11 Red also work well.

Having found the bunker on #6 on Blue and narrowly missed the same on #4 on Red, I'll agree that the bunkers work quite well, and deliver their due penalty. Instead of a relatively straightforward pitch on #6, or perhaps even putting up onto the green, I left myself a bunker shot of awkward distance and walked away with double. Both bunkers will give me pause the next time I'm on their tee...

[Doug Siebert]

But as a little comment in defence of your assertion, Trump Scotland could well be a poster child for exactly what you're referring to.

But as Thomas has just said, you can easily ruin the intended strategy, if you so wish, by growing hideous rough around your cross bunkers, making them almost impossible to put a ball in.  

Does that really ruin the intended strategy?  If they are pot bunkers, I'd agree with you, because generally those are designed so a running ball will go towards them - or go away from them if it is a hazard that's intended to scare the player rather than actually penalize them.

But if the bunkers aren't much of a penalty for good players, having rough around them can be a good thing.  It provides a bigger penalty to the good player, but saves a poor player from playing a shot he fears.  Well, unless he stubs the shot from the rough into the bunker, and then from the bunker into the rough on the other side

Having 'hideous' rough maybe isn't such a great idea - you don't want it so thick that you have people spending several minutes searching for the ball, or where they're forced to take an unplayable.  But it should not be mown to an even height.  There's nothing more distasteful to me than a bunker in the fairway, surrounded by a nice even green collar of uniform height rough.  Yuck!

[Sean_A]

I take it people aren't suggesting that most bunkers should be surrounded by fairway. As Mark B points out, very few courses have the fairway width and tree control to make this effective.  I don't see an issue with bunkers jutting into fairways from the rough with at least part of the front as fairway and part of the back as fairway.  Its even okay to have some bunkers totally in the rough once in a while providing part of the back is fairway to reward the guy who makes the carry.  I kinda like the camouflage effect...New Zealand does this well sometimes.  Basically, if the fronts are open and many of the backs are partially open all is good.  I don't mind at all having the backs of centreline bunkers as rough either...I am envisioning Walton Heath...very attractive.  The less vegetation for a bunker the harder it is to make it blend well with the  remainder of the course.  I have seen some awful shaping and perhaps revetted pots are the supreme expression of copping out in that regard.  In my mind, the guy who did it best without the aid of vegetation was Simpson...but even he got a bit swirly at times. 

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Define Fairway...

I'll wait.

But in all seriousness as it pertains to the Ross aspect of the original post, what Ross/any ODG considered "fairway" and what modern maintenance practices consider "fairway" are light years apart and the rules offer no definition of fairway.

I think this ultimately becomes a question of how the "frame" of the fairway presents the bunker to the golfer's eye from wherever it needs to be presented.

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle,  Does the aesthetic trump the playability?

Fairgreen throughout, seems much more democratic, especially on the playability scale, and should be core principle-esque.

Funny how we all grew up watching The Masters every spring, yet, this aspect of the Augusta syndrome didn't make the transition onto the greens committee's docket. Confirms to me that having defined narrow fairways makes the better player feel warm and fuzzy. Ergo, easier.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Kyle, you make a good point. Today's rough is undoubtedly thicker than yesteryear's, making even worse the decision to give rough more of the playing acreage.

[Jason Thurman]

One of my favorite courses is the bombastic Dunes course at The Prairie Club. Mark Saltzman did a photo tour of it a few years ago here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48734.0.html

I recall one of the replies asking if it was possible to have too many centerline hazards on a single course. I say no - at least not at The Prairie Club - but then I've always sort of enjoyed the audacious. My yardage guide from The Prairie Club looks right at home on the bookshelf alongside "Apocalypse Now," "Ulysses," and "Be Here Now."

[Kyle Harris]

Adam,

The playability is mostly in the location of the bunker. Obviously the mowing line between the player and the bunker will have some influence on playability, but once that mowing line is taken away (and we are talking mowing lines here, I tend to avoid the designation "fairway" since it lacks a real definition) it is all aesthetics. Moving the mowing line is not moving the bunker.

To my eye, once the bunker is contained within the mowing line it begins to appear closer to the golfer than it would if the mowing line were between the bunker and the player. That has some influence on intent, I believe.

[Stephen Pellegrino]

At the course in question (Wianno on Cape Cod), two of the first things that Gil Hanse recommend for us was widening the fairways and eliminating our step cut.

WIDTH- The extra width in the fairways certainty accentuated our landforms, but it also set the stage for restoring some of the bunkers in question. The added width allowed for these bunkers to be just off center to the line of play rather than right down the middle. Certainly these bunkers would have had far less strategic (and aesthetic) appeal had they been bordered by heavy rough on one side.

STEP CUT - While the suggestion of widening the fairways did not surprise me, the far ranging implications of eliminating the step cut did. Once gone, we were free to have the short grass run into the sand (or as close as is practically possible) - effectively enlarging the size of these hazards and rendering them more effective. (It's maybe worth noting that we have a 12" collar of native on the back sides of these bunkers for accent. This native is maintained so as to NOT be ball catcher.)

SHAPE &  SIZE - As an earlyish DR design (and one where it seems he did not spend much time), to me the remaining original bunker complexes tend to be slightly more geometric, smaller and abrupt than his later/more developed work.

In my mind, the combination of extra width on our fairways, the elimination of the step cut and the small/abrupt nature of these bunkers makes them work - and work well. Wianno is a short, fun par 70 at just over 6,000 yards, and the restoration (1 hole) and addition (3 holes) of these new bunkers has been a huge improvement. While I am confident that we have not employed too much of a good thing, I keep wondering if I will ever hear opinions to the contrary...

[Paul Gray]

Paul Gray,

Not having seen Trump Scotland, I can't comment on how that feature works or is over used.

But, I can comment on Streamsong, where bunkers surrounded by fairway are in abundance and where they work quite well.

# 3, # 6, # 11 and # 18 Blue come quickly to mind.

All holes work well, probably because of the ample width and variety in the holes.

# 4, # 9, # 11 Red also work well.

But, I wonder, if Donald Trump owned Streamsong and Mosaic owned Trump Scotland, if you'd feel the same way  

Obviously you're referring to Doak/Coore vs Hawtree.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

While I am confident that we have not employed too much of a good thing, I keep wondering if I will ever hear opinions to the contrary...

Griping should be music to your ears; be more concerned if you don't hear it. Griping is a feature not a bug.

[Paul Gray]

While I am confident that we have not employed too much of a good thing, I keep wondering if I will ever hear opinions to the contrary...

If 95% of the voices aren't angry at first, you haven't done enough. This is the way of things.  

[Mark_Fine]

A "fairway" bunker should be "in" the fairway which means it SHOULD NOT be surrounded by rough!  I call bunkers surrounded by rough "rough" bunkers.  I recall all the "fairway" bunkers years ago at Pinehurst #2 that were languishing out in the rough.  Sad    Thank goodness they restored the width and put the "fairway" bunkers back in the fairways! 

[Stephen Pellegrino]

Mark B &  Paul G-
Clearly we were separated at birth. Embrace the gripe. It's been my mantra for years.

EMBRACE THE GRIPE!!

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