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Jeff_Brauer

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How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« on: December 29, 2014, 04:12:49 PM »
As an offshoot of the surface/piped drainage thread, it seems a given that most don't like to see catch basins, and many assume they affect play often.  It is true, as someone pointed out, that a golf ball will follow a slope to the lowest point, at least if the slopes are over 5-7%, depending on turf height.

But all that said, I think I can count the times on one hand, no more than both, over 48 years of golfing where I had to move a ball out or off a catch basin. And, I have played courses with plenty of them, too.

So, my natural conclusion is that if the turf needs them for drainage, I put them in, obviously trying to minimize them in the highest play areas, but even then, not particularly obsessing about it.

For that matter, how many times have you had to move off a cart path, yellow rope areas (maybe caused by poor drainage or heavy traffic) ground under repair (again often due to poor drainage) or even sprinkler head?  While I never actively counted, I think I have been affected by those areas more often.

Basically, 20 rounds per year, over 48 years, or about 1000 rounds, I may have had to move a ball off a CB 10 times, or once every 50 rounds/ two and a half years.  Would love to hear your approximate ratio of CB's affect your play once every XX rounds.  If you care to, you can add the approximate ratio of the other conditions that make you lift and place or drop your ball, not related to hitting into a hazard.

Obviously, the estimate alone should be a sufficient answer.  I can't see the need for too many expanded answers.

Am I just lucky, or somewhere near the norm?  Is a near obsession with avoiding catch basins justified statistically, or is it just the idea of them POSSIBLY affecting a shot that bothers most?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MClutterbuck

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 04:30:02 PM »
Jeff, for the last 7 years I have played on a sancapped Nicklaus course that uses catch basins extensively. I have a similar experience than you do. I have had far more instances where I have to drop due to cart paths or sprinklers.

JMEvensky

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 04:49:01 PM »
I'm sure I've had to in 40+ years of playing,but I have no recollection of it.

Tom_Doak

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 04:53:23 PM »
Jeff:

I seldom have to take a drop away from a catch basin.  But I seldom play courses that have a lot of them.  Somehow, places like Merion and Oakmont and [insert any other top 100 course you feel like here] managed to build great courses without them.  That's the part I obsess on.

I do think I've had to drop away from sprinkler heads more often, especially since irrigation designers started going to the two-head systems around the greens.

Daniel Jones

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 05:09:56 PM »
I can only think of two catch basins on my home course of 25+ years and they're both behind the same green. I can only recall taking relief from it once... Now the drainage creek which lines the 4th fairway and leads to/from the pond at the low point of the property...that's a different story.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2014, 05:15:15 PM »
Jeff,

On my home course one catch basin in particular affects my play every single time. Every single time. I rarely take drops from it though as I almost always play away from it now, not entirely because of it but it is a major factor in that decision. Other catch basins out there catch me every now and then. Cart paths, yellow tape: very rarely. Sprinkler heads more frequently but mainly in green collars.

On my main away course, Yale, the 7th fairway had perpetual drainage problems until a recent "solution": tons of catch basins. Seriously, it looks like an experimental field sponsored by the Catch Basin Association For Catch Basinry Across America. It also looks horrible. If I had a say, and I don't, it's not my question, I would add aesthetic objections to the list in your question.

The course I played the third-most times in 2014 was Royal North Devon. It had zero (artificial) catch basins and a small area yellow taped around a sprinkler box. The course did have tape around many greens to keep the horses and sheep out. That tape never came into play. The course must've had some sprinkler heads somewhere because I know it has artificial irrigation. But I don't remember seeing any.

It's too bad the architecture profession has advanced beyond what was available to Fowler. As I said in the other thread, I feel catch basins have enabled lazy architecture. Just my opinion, I'm a stupid hack who doesn't know anything about building or maintaining a course.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Thomas Dai

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2014, 05:27:56 PM »
A course that seems to get no love on here is the 2010 at Celtic Manor. And boyo, does it have some catch basins, surprising really as it never rains much in Wales! (sic).

Anyway, you stand in the fairway, stokesaver book in hand, looking at the green wondering what to do. You subconsciously aim away from the bunkers or other visible trouble and low and behold hit a rubbish shot that misses the obvious hazards and the green. Where do you end up? In the damn catch basins! Free drop from a grating, yip, up-n-down, damn hard work unless the putter is hot. Evil places the catch basins, the bunkers are your friends, stay away from the catch basins to make a score. Nice puzzle once you've sussed the various alternatives out.

Atb


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2014, 05:53:02 PM »
TD,

As someone mentioned, name a course that didn't add a lot of some kind of drainage later on.  There probably aren't many, but either they use French drains and dig them up as you found necessary at PD, or they put the basins way out in of play areas, which is probably a result of them putting the main features on highest ground, because they couldn't afford more drainage.

I have told the story before, but I had two guys attend the old Cornish and Graves course.  Geoff made the point that they usually put 50K in drainage, and my guys told him in class that we typically spent 150-250K.  Geoff pointed out that they probably added 25-50K of drainage at his courses over 5-10 years and it all evens out. So, I guess I felt better about just putting as much of it as you think you need, even though it never turns out to be as much as you need. 

Or as one well known super says - "Don't expect to add drainage every year, just the years you work there." I am in the camp that the old courses have added much drainage over the years and we just don't tend to notice it.

And, in the camp of do what ya gotta do, and try to minimize the supers problems the first few years, when he has enough anyway.  What ya gotta do, varies from site to site, climate to climate, soil to soil, etc. 

Mark, I know examples of CB's causing lazy architecture but I don't think its as prevalent as you think.  Certainly in the short term aftermath of the cheaper HDPE pipe, some high end archies experimented with more shaping and basins (value judgers might say over shaping, but hey, it's art, someone was going to try it).

In my case, which I think is pretty typical of the mid range guys, we heard grow in and play complaints from long swales crossing fairways or down fairways, especially from housing, wetness in approaches and cart paths around tees and greens, etc. and cut water off from a few more critical areas, and perhaps loosened up a bit in grading in all swales, catching a few more swales in pipes to avoid those long runs, and maybe a elevating fairways like engineers elevate roads, to keep drainage to the side.

And, of course, on a dead flat site there is little way around them.  You could build up an entire fairway to drain somewhere, but its more expensive than some combo of pipe and grading.

Like I say, ya gotta do what you gotta do.  It seems to be a small minority who complain about them.

Thomas, one of my most extensive drain systems was in the Las Vegas desert.  But, we had houses above the whole golf course, and wanted to pick up all the nuisance water draining off them before it hit the fairway.  As the land plan came out, we were not allowed to take any golf drainage short cuts through the housing, so we had a whopper of a trunk line coming down nearly each fairway, plus lots of lateral drains.  $600K total cost (in about 2000).

Put it into gravel drain pits you ask?  Well, the water table was only a few feet under the surface, so that wouldn't work.  In fact, we had another $300K in a herringbone system just to keep the water table where it needed to be (below fairways and houses) All the pipes ran to a lake which had a transfer pump to put it up and over into the Las Vegas wash.  So there you have it, almost a million dollars to drain a desert course.  Believe me, it surprised me, too.

But, back on topic......I guess aesthetics is a concern, again minimized by putting them out of the major play zones, and maybe, using black covers over those more typical bright green plastic covers?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2014, 07:08:37 PM »
Jeff,

I don't play a lot, and when I do it's often older courses, that, as you indicate, may have added drainage, but not always of the basin variety. More likely the drainage added at older venues is perforated pipe in herringbone patterns, or right up the middle of a swale with some branches off of that.

I indicated in the other thread that my gripe is usually the shaping to (intentionally) facilitate drainage to a basin.....not with the basin structure itself. Most often it becomes a regular, smooth bowl-shaped thing with a drain grate in the bottom....effecient, but ugly and a black eye as far as interest and variety is concerned.

The other big beef I have, and it is relative to the discussion, is the latest and greatest irrigation system designs. I have a hard time believing we need so many valves(valve box covers) and heads. There is "stuff" all over the place now, and the old courses that we love for not having basins are often the worst offenders. Nothing more perturbing than seeing 18-24 heads/ valve covers/ quick couplers around a green, only to have a guy drag a hose out of the cart and nullify any excuse for the hardware.......there, I feel better now......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Cliff Hamm

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2014, 07:17:39 PM »
My biggest objection to catch basins is the awkward lies that were not part of the architect's intent...up hill, down hill, side hill...My home course recently instituted a local rule that you can drop 2 club lengths from the catch basin. 

Doug Siebert

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2014, 12:18:10 AM »
There's a course in town that has an overabundance of catch basins, but the only ones I ever have trouble with are the ones that are near greens.  The ones in the fairway seem to be located towards the edges where short hitters might face them, and towards the less desirable line off the tee where longer hitters might face them.  I think that's a pretty smart approach, as shorter hitters are more likely to hit straighter, and longer hitters are more likely to be favoring the better approach angle.

Around the greens it is more "all that water on the green has to go somewhere" and they're mostly to the left of the green.  I suppose if you have to pick a spot that will affect fewer people, but it affects me a lot since that's where 90% of my misses are :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2014, 09:35:59 AM »

I indicated in the other thread that my gripe is usually the shaping to (intentionally) facilitate drainage to a basin.....not with the basin structure itself. Most often it becomes a regular, smooth bowl-shaped thing with a drain grate in the bottom....effecient, but ugly and a black eye as far as interest and variety is concerned.


Bingo
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »
My biggest objection to catch basins is the awkward lies that were not part of the architect's intent...up hill, down hill, side hill...My home course recently instituted a local rule that you can drop 2 club lengths from the catch basin. 

Cliff,

I am not sure it isn't an architects intent to give you a variety of lies!

I also wonder just how steep the lie gets around your basin. I learned early in the biz that once you get water near a basin, make sure it gets in, so I can imagine the last few feet around the basin diving a little faster, which may be good engineering, but if your ball really does find that spot, probably more difficult and awkward than intended.  It is one of the trade offs we sometimes have to make.

I do agree the shaping can get repetitive as Joe H suggests.  I do recall playing TPC and literally, the basins were 80' - or four pipe lengths apart - and the shaping matched and was similar to each.  There are, I suppose, only so many ways the shapers human mind can divine to shape an 80 ft area.  On plans, I try to stagger spacing of basins to start setting up some variety, but its not always possible.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2014, 01:31:00 PM »
Jeff,

I try to problem-solve when I'm shaping, but it doesn't work with all architects....sometimes other issues prevent that collaboration.

But, if you were to ask me how to avoid the 40 foot bowls on 80 centers problem, I might suggest a feature that looks more like a swale or a ravine that was formed by erosion, and have the occasional drain grate in the bottom along the way. If possible, said ravine would actually lead to a water feature or another ravine....kinda like what you see all over the country when you look out the window of the airplane.

I do my least inspired work when I have to build a bunch of numbers on big sheets of paper, rather than try to do some in-the-field problem solving.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bruce Katona

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2014, 04:33:13 PM »
I can only recall one hole on one course where this was an issue for me - #9 at Hamilton Farm.  If I'm recalling properly, #9 is a par 5 where the prudent play is to lay up and wedge into the green on your 3rd shot.  Due to the site topography, the lay up area was shaped like a saucer with a catch basin at the bottom. Most well played balls landing in the layup zone and settled down into the bottom of the landing area where this basin was located so the area would drain and the turf remain healthy;  you needed to drop away from the drainage structure and all of the surrounding divots.

It was easy enough to raise the grade for the layup zone, keeping the drainage in place to remedy this issue; it was just CAPEX dollars that were required.

By now this issue may have been resolved.

Sean_A

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 04:38:59 PM »
I have only experienced the drain basins a handful of times (but on only a few courses), but I must say it was annoying and I did wonder if better shaping solutions weren't available. That said, I tend to play classic courses and actively avoid new courses which I think will have drainage issues, so I am not likely to encounter much in the way of drainage basins.  Be that as it may, even if a poor shaping job was done to clear water, I would take that over standing water any day.  Unlike others on this thread, I don't believe a course can have too much in the way of good drainage solutions because water is the enemy of proper golf. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 04:55:05 PM »
Jeff,

I try to problem-solve when I'm shaping, but it doesn't work with all architects....sometimes other issues prevent that collaboration.

But, if you were to ask me how to avoid the 40 foot bowls on 80 centers problem, I might suggest a feature that looks more like a swale or a ravine that was formed by erosion, and have the occasional drain grate in the bottom along the way. If possible, said ravine would actually lead to a water feature or another ravine....kinda like what you see all over the country when you look out the window of the airplane.

I do my least inspired work when I have to build a bunch of numbers on big sheets of paper, rather than try to do some in-the-field problem solving.

Joe

Joe,

I have heard many shaper say they work best with fewer constrained points.  I understand and try to give good shapers some latitude.  Also, understand trying to mimic nature.  Like the idea of a recreating long swales, with basins along the way.  I usually use whatever natural cues I can, but sometimes on dead flat sites there are none, and then we all scratch are heads at how to do it!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Daniel Jones

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 07:17:05 PM »
Walked the back 9 of my course this evening and counted the catch basins. Earlier I said I could only think of 2... Turns out there's 13 on the back nine alone. Shows how much I pay attention...

Carl Rogers

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Re: How often has a catch basin affected your play?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 08:14:11 PM »
Very rarely, but it has happened at True Blue, Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent ... Mike Strantz courses
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

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