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Greg Tallman

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Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« on: December 23, 2014, 02:39:49 PM »
While Tiger's initial design, El Cardonal and Jack's recently opened Quivira are getting all of the press the long awaited completion/opening of the Chileno Bay Club deserves far more press/discussion than the aforementioned courses.

Still not quite finished in terms of landscaping and bunkering this course, that has been in the ground since 2009, is among Cabo's very best and is hands down the finest that does not include holes along the ocean.

Typically not a big Fazio fan I enjoy Chileno more with each visit. The highlights:

-Smallish Greens/Varied Surrounds. A few greens I would guess at 3000 sq ft or so and a few more that appear large from the approach only to arrive at the green and feel duped... lots of false edges and internal contours (not long sweeping slopes you would expect)

-Great Set of Par 5s. All but one potentially reachable but all requiring plenty of thought on the second shot, whether laying up or attacking. Nice use of central bunkers, portions of greens placed behind hillsides and a great ~600 yard cape hole (for those who have played Querencia, Chileno's is a far superior version of their feature 5 par).  

-Best Opening Hole In Cabo Wonderful mid-length par 4 that fits the land perfectly while playing over the warm-up putting green which is a cool touch.

I will let MWP take this and run with it but the bottom line is this course is just about ready for prime time and should make a big splash even in a great golf market like Los Cabos.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 03:07:04 PM by Greg Tallman »

Emile Bonfiglio

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 06:29:08 PM »
Greg, I would have stopped in to CDS to say hello but I was too busy oodling over Yuri Schleffler's yacht that was docked in Cabo last week. My favorite thing last week was how everyone in town was saying it was Tiger's boat.....right...he's rich but he ain't that rich!

You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 07:10:47 PM »
Greg, I would have stopped in to CDS to say hello but I was too busy oodling over Yuri Schleffler's yacht that was docked in Cabo last week. My favorite thing last week was how everyone in town was saying it was Tiger's boat.....right...he's rich but he ain't that rich!

LOL, quite the "boat",  only 435 feet in length and $330 million. Tiger not quite in that league just yet.

That's a lot of Stoli having been sold over the years! Not the most expensive to have graced San Lucas Bay but probably the nicest/most elegant.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 10:40:48 AM by Greg Tallman »

astavrides

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 07:15:58 PM »
Are you saying Chileno Bay is better than El Cardinal and Quivera? How does Chileno Bay compare to Querencia?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 09:11:01 AM »
Are you saying Chileno Bay is better than El Cardinal and Quivera? How does Chileno Bay compare to Querencia?

By far the best of those 4 courses.

10 rounds between the 4...
7 Chileno
1 each of the others

Frank Kim

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 09:11:35 AM »
Greg,

Does Chileno Bay allow outside play?  I just booked airline tickets to Cabo for March 2015.

Frank

Greg Tallman

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 10:44:39 AM »
Greg,

Does Chileno Bay allow outside play?  I just booked airline tickets to Cabo for March 2015.

Frank

The club is private but thus far access has been attainable. Hard to say what the case will be come March but feel free to contact me prior to arrival and I will run the traps for you.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 11:04:04 AM »
Although in no way as polished conditioning wise as EL Cardonal and certainly nowhere as close as being a finished product,what a wonderful golf course.
Having gone through the usual process of multiple owners the course has taken a long time to open.
A Fazio design that for seventeen holes does not really resemble that usual FAzio feel.
The subtle and interesting green complexes without the usual gross over bunkering and constant flashes of bunker sand in your eyes from start to finish.
Bunker shapes and vegetation surrounds are beautiful even at this stage of incompleteness.
There is marvelous use of the natural terrain to provide a golf course that in my opinion is equally as playable as El Cardonal for the average player but with a way more interesting array of holes, more pleasing to the eye and cahhlenging to the better player.

CHILENO may have an advantage in terrain over Tigers design in order to provide a more interesting and greater variety of holes but in my opinion most of the "better" features are the result of superior routing and design in general.
Superb green complexes,great shot values with marvelous vistas created by imaginative tee box locations, and great esthetics for tee shot landing areas maximizing the terrain the architects had to work with.
The greens resemble the eb and flow of an ocean tide rather than the usual chaotic heaving quad ranted greens normally associated with Fazio greens, and as such leaving more subtle  and vario ofpin placements.
Greg and I thought that perhaps there is too much similarity in hole lengths but that can be easily adjusted by jumping around tee boxes which is exactly what we did, resulting in an array of approach shots using just about every club in the bag.
Failure to jump around the boxes leaves too many par threes of the same length and shots into many of the par fours being the same yardage wise.
That been said there is a marvelous selection of short par fours all distinctly different in their respective modes of play and a memorable set of par fives including the awesome cape 6th with its dazzling tee shot heading towards the Ocean.
I have deliberately not posted pictures out of fairness to the project developers who know that this is not the finished product.
Some bunkers still lack sand, some of the bunker surrounds still awaiting their vegetation finishing and as such not fair to show at his point in time.
The turf condition needs work still, but all of that is just time, what remains is a superb layout that is certainly in Cabos top three.
As a member of Daimante, I can only hope that the third course at " home" resembles this fine piece of work.


Then comes number 18 and we are Fazioed, diabolical green complex with a totally wasteful and useless front third, a green complex that is so far removed from the rest of the course that leaves you scratching your head thinking couldn't somebody see how poor this was as a fit for this course????
Just one of those what were you thinking moments, which is such a shame, but again easily taken care of....just blow it up, in fact start the entire hole again, Messrs Wharton- Palmer and Tallman being the great architects we are are , are readily available to provide you with a finishing hole. that this course deserves😉

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 11:24:59 AM »
Although in no way as polished conditioning wise as EL Cardonal and certainly nowhere as close as being a finished product,what a wonderful golf course.
Having gone through the usual process of multiple owners the course has taken a long time to open.
A Fazio design that for seventeen holes does not really resemble that usual FAzio feel.
The subtle and interesting green complexes without the usual gross over bunkering and constant flashes of bunker sand in your eyes from start to finish.
Bunker shapes and vegetation surrounds are beautiful even at this stage of incompleteness.
There is marvelous use of the natural terrain to provide a golf course that in my opinion is equally as playable as El Cardonal for the average player but with a way more interesting array of holes, more pleasing to the eye and cahhlenging to the better player.

CHILENO may have an advantage in terrain over Tigers design in order to provide a more interesting and greater variety of holes but in my opinion most of the "better" features are the result of superior routing and design in general.
Superb green complexes,great shot values with marvelous vistas created by imaginative tee box locations, and great esthetics for tee shot landing areas maximizing the terrain the architects had to work with.
The greens resemble the eb and flow of an ocean tide rather than the usual chaotic heaving quad ranted greens normally associated with Fazio greens, and as such leaving more subtle  and vario ofpin placements.
Greg and I thought that perhaps there is too much similarity in hole lengths but that can be easily adjusted by jumping around tee boxes which is exactly what we did, resulting in an array of approach shots using just about every club in the bag.
Failure to jump around the boxes leaves too many par threes of the same length and shots into many of the par fours being the same yardage wise.
That been said there is a marvelous selection of short par fours all distinctly different in their respective modes of play and a memorable set of par fives including the awesome cape 6th with its dazzling confusing tee shot heading towards the Ocean. Never considered 6 a cape hole, the 12th however is an extraordinary cape par 5. Again, among the best sets of 5s I have played

I have deliberately not posted pictures out of fairness to the project developers who know that this is not the finished product.
Some bunkers still lack sand, some of the bunker surrounds still awaiting their vegetation finishing and as such not fair to show at his point in time.
The turf condition needs work still, but all of that is just time, what remains is a superb layout that is certainly in Cabos top three.
As a member of Daimante, I can only hope that the third course at " home" resembles this fine piece of work. Sadly it does not sound as though "subtle" is in the cards for the final course at Diamante... more like Shadow Creek, which they have trotted out for comparison on occasion. Heck I look forward to the "Short Course" or "Family Course" or however they brand what they are creating on the land and surrounds that was the former 12th and 13th of the Dunes course.

Then comes number 18 and we are Fazioed, diabolical green complex with a totally wasteful and useless front third, a green complex that is so far removed from the rest of the course that leaves you scratching your head thinking couldn't somebody see how poor this was as a fit for this course???? Particularly after the smallish greens at 16 and 17

Just one of those what were you thinking moments, which is such a shame, but again easily taken care of....just blow it up, in fact start the entire hole again, Messrs Wharton- Palmer and Tallman being the great architects we are are , are readily available to provide you with a finishing hole. that this course deserves😉 Give us a walking bridge and a D4 and away we go. 'Tis true there is very little about the finisher that I liked, the hole would fit well at Querencia, not Chileno. Fair statement MWP?


Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2014, 04:29:38 PM »
I meant 12 sorry for the confusion.
I agree on e evaluation of #18 totally.

I have a feeling that Diamanté may pull back fro the original plan of the Shangri la format for the third course here is hoping so

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 02:24:23 PM »
Played this course yesterday on Greg's recommendation.  I am happy to see my takes were similar to theirs.  It is a really good golf course with a great set of par 5s and creative use of some dramatic and severe landforms.  The views towards the Ocean and inland are spactacular and I can attest it is a playable course given we played from 6800 yards on soft fairways where my drives were at best carrying 210-220.  I had to play a lot of grandpa golf by turining par 4's into 3 shotters but could navigate around the course just fine.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 02:44:46 PM »
Views on the new #12/13 at Dunes?
Views in general about both courses at Diamnte..IM if you prefer.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 04:47:31 PM »
MWP

I did not play the Tiger Woods course.  3 of our 5 had not been there before and I knew they had to experience the Dunes.

I loved the setting for 12 and 13.  I am not sure I am a big fan of the holes as tests of golf but would need to play them more to solidify an opinion. 

The tee shot on 12 is fantastic visually but I cannot decipher whether the slope around the corner comes into play and I am not sure about all of the little humps in the fairway down the hill.  I also do not see much downside in taking an agressive line as you will likely be able to pitch out to wedge range even if you do not make it,The 2nd shot is pretty cool with plenty of room for a layup but a pretty demanding shot if you are going for it in two. 

13 might be a great hole but it is blind off the tee and it is unclear to me how much upside there is to take an aggressive line.   The pin was in a bowl when we played it so all shots funnelled to the hole.  I am sure it is a demanding second when the pin is elsewhere.  I laid up right and wedged on pretty close to the hole despite pulling the shot 10-15 feet.  Another person hit it right of the hole and wound up in about the same spot.  Again, however, the green was blind and the hole would be best understood with multiple plays.

For purely testing golf shots, I suspect the earlier holes were better.  For sense of place and fun the new holes are an improvement. 

What did you think?  PM if you prefer.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 05:08:58 PM »
OKAY..
#12....The slope on the right ended up being steeper than anticipated secondary to erosion from the hurricane.
My soucres tell me that will be softened which will then allow second shots somewhere to settle rather than just running out of the fairway to the left.
Due to the "must get the Tiger course open" this slope was not adjusted prior to opening the new holes, which is a shame.
I love the tee shot and the visual of the second shot, but admit until they do something with the lay up landing area, it is a little confusing.

#13
It does indeed grow on you.
At first look again confusing, I think the left side could have been or ibdeed should be a little more subtle and not as blind.
I love the angle of the tee and the intimate nature of the tee box, but at first glimpse you really are clueless on what to hit, where to hit it and how far can you hit it.
After two or three playings it has grown on me though, now I know what to hit and where to hit it ;)

Long trem, no doubt it will be an asset versus the two holes it replaced, which IMO were not in line with the rest of the design.
Plus any chance to get two extra ocean holes has got to be a good thing....right? ;D

Jason Topp

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 05:50:01 PM »
MWP - According to the caddy they already did something to help out with the layup on 12 - although I remember it being adding some flatter area on the left to allow a ball to stop.  I can attest it worked for me.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2015, 01:47:58 PM »
There has already been considerable changes to the new 12th and 13th at Diamante but in fairness to Paul, and as pointed out by MWP, his focus was on getting the Tiger course finished and open. Having a guy like Paul on site every day is a tremendous luxury. With his non-stop, tinkering mind the course gets better on a weekly basis. We should all be so lucky.

MWP, you need not pump it so hard... it's good, really good. The new holes are far better though I would disagree with Bill Schulz' assessment of the new 12th as one of the best par 5s in all of golf. I can think of a few here in Cabo I believe are far better, starting with 12 at Chileno Bay. Heck 10 on Dunes may be as good of a par 5 as 12!  ;)

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 02:54:43 PM »
You know that I love #13 at the Dunes, that green setting IS one f the best in golf.
If the seconf shot wasnt quite so blind it would be perfect
I agree with you on the other 5 pars as well.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 04:37:23 PM »
You know that I love #13 at the Dunes, that green setting IS one f the best in golf.
If the seconf shot wasnt quite so blind it would be perfect
I agree with you on the other 5 pars as well.

Though I have not actually played it I really liked what I saw of the new 13th. Seemed like there was ample space to get the tee ball to a position where you could see the green, but perhaps not???

I liked most of what I saw of the 12th but wasn't enamored with the green though I understand has been enlarged/amended a fair bit since I visited.


Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2015, 08:25:07 PM »
Actually I was talking about number 14.....that is the hole all those comments were referring to....13's okay as well😱
I love the 14 th green complex,reminds me of many classic links green sites.

Frank Kim

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 05:47:26 PM »
Looking forward to playing Chileno Bay on March 22.  Thanks Greg for setting it up.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 06:58:05 PM »
Looking forward to playing Chileno Bay on March 22.  Thanks Greg for setting it up.

Denada

Adam_Messix

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2015, 02:05:14 PM »
Chileno Bay is an outstanding course and we should be hearing more about it over the next few years once they fully finish the course and club.  I really liked the current rough look of the bunkers, but it's not the way to attract members.  I really enjoyed the way the course used the property and the routing is intimate enough and is a compelling trip through desert arroyo.  As Michael and Greg have noted, the green complexes are really good and show some nice variety and a bit different for Tom Fazio.  One of the things that I enjoyed about Chileno is that it seemed like Tom pushed the envelope a bit making things a bit tougher with smaller greens and great use of existing landforms.  The opener is the coolest opener in Tom Fazio's portfolio this side of Wade Hampton, weaving through the landforms, fitting like a glove.  The short par 4s #8 and 11 are both excellent and quite tempting, and subtly diabolical.  The 12th is an excellent wrap around par 5 with an outstanding and very tricky green..... but the par 5s as a set are excellent (6 is my favorite).  Unlike Greg and MWP, I didn't have a huge problem with the finishing green.  It's tough, especially for a long 4, and it may be a little out of place with the rest of the greens on the course, but it makes for the kind of finish where you might see a huge swing and I'm ok with that. 

Overall, Chileno Bay is an outstanding course that will be much talked about in years to come.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2015, 02:55:51 PM »
Chileno Bay is an outstanding course and we should be hearing more about it over the next few years once they fully finish the course and club.  I really liked the current rough look of the bunkers, but it's not the way to attract members.  I really enjoyed the way the course used the property and the routing is intimate enough and is a compelling trip through desert arroyo.  As Michael and Greg have noted, the green complexes are really good and show some nice variety and a bit different for Tom Fazio.  One of the things that I enjoyed about Chileno is that it seemed like Tom pushed the envelope a bit making things a bit tougher with smaller greens and great use of existing landforms.  The opener is the coolest opener in Tom Fazio's portfolio this side of Wade Hampton, weaving through the landforms, fitting like a glove.  The short par 4s #8 and 11 are both excellent and quite tempting, and subtly diabolical.  The 12th is an excellent wrap around par 5 with an outstanding and very tricky green..... but the par 5s as a set are excellent (6 is my favorite).  Unlike Greg and MWP, I didn't have a huge problem with the finishing green.  It's tough, especially for a long 4, and it may be a little out of place with the rest of the greens on the course, but it makes for the kind of finish where you might see a huge swing and I'm ok with that. 

Overall, Chileno Bay is an outstanding course that will be much talked about in years to come.

Adam, I challenge the assertion of 8 being excellent. I would go as far as to say it is not very good. I like that he has tried to incorporate the short 4s into his big and bold style but just think 8 is a swing and a miss in that regard. There is very little chance of hitting it on the surface and none of the bunkers around the green offer a more attractive option that if one lays up. The lay up is in a bowl where any shot hit within a 50 or so yard range (distance and right/left) is going to funnel into the same area. If the hole were 375 or so I think it would work better as in my mind it s not a good attempt at a drivable 4. The 11th works better in my mind as there are more options, including being able to get the ball on the putting surface from the tee.

18 could be on any other Fazio course... just doesn't fit with the rest of Chileno and I feel the tees are misplaced and center hazard is overkill.

The opener is perhaps my favorite hole on the course, the mid-length 16th is excellent and I agree with the set of 5s being very good, maybe the best I have played.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2015, 11:34:56 AM »
Greg--

Interesting comments regarding 8 at Chileno.  I thought that the green was elevated just enough, angled just enough, and was just narrow enough to make for an exacting pitch which is why I like the hole.  I stood on the green and watched a pretty good pitch from left center end up in the right bunker and it wasn't far from perfect.   

Where would you move the tees on 18?  Closer to the 17th green?

Greg Tallman

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Re: Chileno Bay Club - Los Cabos
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2015, 11:46:29 AM »
Greg--

Interesting comments regarding 8 at Chileno.  I thought that the green was elevated just enough, angled just enough, and was just narrow enough to make for an exacting pitch which is why I like the hole.  I stood on the green and watched a pretty good pitch from left center end up in the right bunker and it wasn't far from perfect.   

Where would you move the tees on 18?  Closer to the 17th green?

But if 8 if getting on the surface from the tee on a 300 (or less) yard hole is not a true option and all (most) tee shots funnel to the same spot... how is that good architecture? I can hit hybrid or driver and wind up in the same little bowl. Again, swing and a miss here.

18 - opposite, would put the tees across the arroyo to the right and max it out at roughly 470. First thought was closer to 17 green but there really is not room unless the hole is only 410ish... bottom line is the tees are in the least logical position to start what is a golf hole completely out of character with the rest of a wonderful course. 

Some of the better mid length 4s around as well. 1,4,5,16... all wonderful. Look to 4 as to what could have been on 18.