Downhill Holes with Back to Front Tilted Greens

[Grant Saunders]

This type of scenario always looks forced to me. There is something odd about a downhill slope being interrupted by a green where it has been chosen to impart a back to front slope for what I assume to be playability reasons.

What are some examples of holes where the green either slopes with the downhill form or a back to front tilted surface ties in seamlessly? Photos please if possible to highlight the examples.

[Bill_McBride]

This type of scenario always looks forced to me. There is something odd about a downhill slope being interrupted by a green where it has been chosen to impart a back to front slope for what I assume to be playability reasons.

What are some examples of holes where the green either slopes with the downhill form or a back to front tilted surface ties in seamlessly? Photos please if possible to highlight the examples.

Oakmont 1, 10 and 12 are the poster children of downhill holes where the fairway runs into the green with no interruption.  The three holes are long so that really makes the holes.  You can always run a shot onto those greens, the real trick is getting it to stay there!

[BCowan]

Grant,

   what do you think about downhill par 3's with the green running away from the player?  I wish i saw more of those. 

[Thomas Dai]

The one that immediately comes to mind is Whittington Heath, England. Par-4 10th hole. Harry Colt. Downhill fairway leading to a downhill green. Evil hole, but in a nice way.

You'll find it here - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html

atb

[Sean_A]

ATB

Whit Heath's green rolls with the slope away from the fairway. I think Grant is asking about greens "facing" downhill fairways.

Ciao 

[Joe Hancock]

Grant,

One project in particular (South Korea, mountainous island site) we were building a severely downhill par 5. Initial shaping of the green was more or less as the land laid, the end product was with the green tilted back to front. It looked and felt "not right".

One way to counter against the slope is to use internal contours in the green, allowing the outside tie-ins of the green to flow more naturally with the terrain. Sorry, I don't have any good pictures as illustrations.

Joe

[Mark McKeever]

Some greater Philly area examples:

-CC of Scranton #10
-Schuylkill CC #5, #10, #15

Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

Grant,

I am always aware of it and suspect most architects are.

For example, I was touring a Keith Foster course before it opened, and noticed all the greens on reverse slope sites had reverse slope greens, and the super confirmed Keith had told him that was one of his design tenants.

I at least flatten the back to front slope on any green on a reverse slope site, and will often build it on the reverse slope.  Otherwise they do look forced.  Usually, the 2% back to front slope looks like 5-10%.

[Doug Siebert]

Grant,

   what do you think about downhill par 3's with the green running away from the player?  I wish i saw more of those.  

There's a local course that has this.  It is extremely downhill (probably close to 60 foot drop, with another 15 feet off the back and sides of the back half of the green)  The highest point in the front is probably 4-5 feet higher than the lowest point (about 15 feet short of the back)

Because it is so steeply sloped you still have very good visibility of the green, but that front to back slope is not obvious, except for there being an "upper" tier that's about 18" higher than the lower tier.  Since it plays with the prevailing wind and there's a strong slope extending right up to the front of the green, it is very tricky, especially when the green is playing firm.

I've heard that every year it has more holes in one than any other hole in the county.  I can believe it, since the ball runs a lot more than on most par 3s.

I think it is cool, and overcomes the objections that people would typically have to a hole with a large front to back slope.  You couldn't do this on a flat par 4 without a ton of people whining that they can't hold the green.  To be honest, I think most people don't realize how much slope there is on that green, until they try a putt from hole high on the front half of the green and see a 40 footer break four or five feet away from the tee.  If the pin is cut near the middle, not far from where it falls onto the lower tier, that five foot break can quickly become a 20 foot break and hello three putt.  It is fun seeing people's reactions who didn't notice that break due to the surrounding landscape hiding it well

[John Kirk]

The 18th hole at Stanford University GC is a notable example.  457 yards long from the back tee, the player tees from the highest point of the golf course down towards the clubhouse.  The hole is downhill until bottoming out about 40-50 yards short of the green.  At this point, the land starts rises to the club house, which makes the (gently) back to front sloping green fit neatly into the surrounds.

Most players will have a downhill second shot from a downhill lie.  There's lots of trouble left of the green, but the typical miss is short and right, leaving a steep pitch over a bunker to the larger than average size green.

Perhaps I'm biased, since this was my father's home course, but #18 at Stanford is special in other ways.  On a clear day, you can see Mt. Tamalpais from the tee box, over 40 miles to the north.  A downhill 18th hole that returns to the clubhouse is another rarity.  One of the most memorable holes on this course, and after several steep uphill climbs late in the round, a great way to finish.



(Special thanks to Joann Dost for providing photos to the Stanford University GC website.)

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Grant,

Whether a back sloping green looks natural or not, sometimes has to do with the landscape that surrounds the green. For example, if the hole plays down a hill towards a valley, a person's eye and senses will tell them that at the slope should lessen or, perhaps even, reverse. If the slope  continues past the green however, and this large green looms out of the ground, more work must be done to naturalise the slopes – even if it is just enough to create a green with a surface slope capable of being putted on, be it forward or backward sloping.

Here is a photo of the 13th green on the Colt Course, Newcastle, during its grow-in. The hole must fall about 100 feet, and while the green slopes slightly from front to back, but I still had to raise the back of the green about 8 feet just to get a putting surface. I dragged the contours out as far and wide as I could to make it appear natural. The feedback has been positive.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

Interesting.  It never occurred to me that that green sloped from front to back.  I think of it as relatively flat, though a ball pitching on the front of the green can get a kick forward. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Some greater Philly area examples:

-CC of Scranton #10
Mark

When we played CCS last summer, we teed off on the back nine. After #10, we were spoiled beyond words. Is it the best hole on the course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John Kirk,

I could be wrong, but I think the OP was questioning greens more like Scott's photo, where the downhill slope is also present at the green.  The Stanford hole you show actually has the green built into a gentle up slope.  So, it looks just fine.

Those photos from Scott M remind me that at a very hilly Colbert Hills, two greens - 1 and 8 - are actually built reverse grade, but I doubt few notice, much like the Colt course.  They would notice if it was truly 2% back to front rather than 2% front to back, because the back of the green would be about 4 ft higher than it is.

The optics of such a situation (not to mention the cut and fill - if Scott had an 8 ft fill behind the green, it would have turned to 12 feet) would make the green would look as if it pitched 4% towards the front.  Or more. It sure wouldn't fit the landscape.

That said, when I have played with Tour Pros, not much escapes them and even from the approach zone, they realize what a green is doing, contour wise and usually play accordingly. 

[Rob Marshall]

Years ago playing Kapalua I hit a great shot into I think the 5th green. It landed just short and trickled onto the front. The hole is severely down hill and the green runs from front to back. The pin was in the front and my ball rolled down grain to the back edge leaving me a very long putt back into the grain. Instant 3 putt. I wrote a letter to Ben Crenshaw asking why he built the green that way. It was impossible to get the ball to stop on the front of the green. His response was that if the green was flat or tilted from back to front it would look like a back stop.  So they elected to have the green slope with the natural terrain.

[John Kirk]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I realize that Scott's primary intent is to discuss how greens built on a downhill slope look if the back-to-front slope is imposed by the designer.  However, the title of the thread is "Downhill Holes With Back To Front Tilted Greens", and the 18th at Stanford fits that description.

I am also suggesting the Stanford course routing (and clubhouse placement) is thoughtful.  On Scott Macpherson's example, the Colt Course hole is built on a long consistent slope, so the option to route the hole to finish at the bottom of the hill, or even as the land begins to rise again, was not an option.  But if you can do it, isn't that a good way to route a course over long downhill slopes?

A question about the Colt Course example, which looks very nice from the tee.  It appears there is a cross bunker short of the green, requiring a soft or high second shot.  Does anybody know whether women or older players have trouble clearing the bunker and stopping the ball on the green?