[George Pazin]

I really liked 14. No one will be surprised that I didn't particularly care for 15, but it was more what Jason said ("15 is arguably the most indifferent hole on the course. It’s a hole that could have been anywhere.") than the water. For me, this hole is just bunt 7 irons down the fairway, ho hum. The green is solid, as are all Dye greens, so it has that.

Didn't much care for 16 either, but as I've said ad nauseum, I don't particularly like drop shot par 3s.

I like 17, don't love it. Not entirely sure why, I'd have to play it again to say for sure. I don't have a problem with a crazy green, but it does seem a bit haphazardly crazy, not thoughtful crazy, if there is such a thing...

No surprise again I don't love 18, although I did kind of feel like the approach shot was the closest I'll probably ever get to playing the 18th at Kapalua.

-----

The only thing I'll add is that my feelings toward PDGC and PD in general probably come off sounding more harsh than intended. I think it's only because PD is held up as highly as he is, plus everything that I've read about him, that I expected more from the courses I've played. I guess that's the ultimate backhanded compliment, in a way. I would gladly play his courses every day over many other courses I've played - but I'd still choose a course like Mountain Ridge every time as well.

Nice tour, Kevin, thanks, brought back a lot of good memories! Hopefully Charlie won't feel the need to drive up here and kick my butt...

[Tommy Williamsen]

Thanks Kevin for doing this.  I enjoy PDGC.  It is a grand course.  I just wish Pete did not create so make cape type holes as an 18th.  They are all a little different from each other but it does get repetitive.

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks Kevin for doing this.  I enjoy PDGC.  It is a grand course.  I just wish Pete did not create so make cape type holes as an 18th.  They are all a little different from each other but it does get repetitive.

Tom,

I imagine that, once the location for the clubhouse was decided, there was little Paul Dye could do with that hole. Running along the Whiteday creek as it does, it had to play that way. It is unique in that the green is located a measurable distance beneath fairway level. Unlike #2, it lessens the assault a bit by locating two of the six tee spaces on the fairway side of the water.

[Kevin Lynch]

I've only played three courses in West Virginia; of those PDGC is the best, but Pikewood is also really good and if they had a set of tees shorter than 6900 yards I'd give it serious consideration. Old White is good too and certainly from a different era and style, but something has to be 3rd. I'd happily play any of them again.

Surprised to hear that the shortest set of tees is 6,900.  Doesn't seem very inclusive, but then again, it's private and they don't need to be.

Interesting to see the various opinions of both via the major rankings:

Golfweek:  PDGC #9 Modern, PN - Not even in Top 200
Golf Digest: PDGC (#45) PN (#44)
Golf: Neither Ranked

[Kevin Lynch]

Thanks Kevin for doing this.  I enjoy PDGC.  It is a grand course.  I just wish Pete did not create so make cape type holes as an 18th.  They are all a little different from each other but it does get repetitive.

Tommy,

Given your portfolio, I'll definitely trust your impressions.  I guess I should be impressed that he only used the Cape finisher once in his four Kohler courses (River).  I suppose I would have taken a Cape over that awkward 18th at the Irish, but he already used up his Cape allotment on #17.


Spinning it around a little, what's your favorite Pete Dye Closing Hole?  

(Deep down, I'm secretly hoping some will name a Cape hole).

[George Pazin]

I've only played three courses in West Virginia; of those PDGC is the best, but Pikewood is also really good and if they had a set of tees shorter than 6900 yards I'd give it serious consideration. Old White is good too and certainly from a different era and style, but something has to be 3rd. I'd happily play any of them again.

Surprised to hear that the shortest set of tees is 6,900.  Doesn't seem very inclusive, but then again, it's private and they don't need to be.

Haven't had the pleasure myself, but I am under the impression that the hilliness of the site mitigates some of the distance.

Then again, the two people I know best who've played there are both very good golfers, so maybe the yardage didn't mean much to them.

[Andy Troeger]

I've only played three courses in West Virginia; of those PDGC is the best, but Pikewood is also really good and if they had a set of tees shorter than 6900 yards I'd give it serious consideration. Old White is good too and certainly from a different era and style, but something has to be 3rd. I'd happily play any of them again.

Surprised to hear that the shortest set of tees is 6,900.  Doesn't seem very inclusive, but then again, it's private and they don't need to be.

Interesting to see the various opinions of both via the major rankings:

Golfweek:  PDGC #9 Modern, PN - Not even in Top 200
Golf Digest: PDGC (#45) PN (#44)
Golf: Neither Ranked

I don't think that means much in this case. Pikewood is very private and exists for the pleasure of the owners and those they choose to invite. I would assume GOLF Magazine can manage to get guys on to see it if it is a priority, but GolfWeek may not have the necessary ballots. They are very receptive to Golf Digest visits--the course is designed for good golfers so there's some logic there.

The hills may knock off a little yardage at Pikewood, but there are some uphill holes/shots too. I'm long enough to handle the yardage, but it is a long and difficult golf course. The biggest weakness of the design IMO is the lack of a short hole of any kind--nothing close to a drive and pitch hole and the shortest par three is still approaching mid-length. That said, it is a great walk and the holes themselves are fantastic. If I had to play a really hard golf course regularly, I'd either play Pikewood or Wolf Run.

On second thought, I'd play Pine Valley...but Pikewood and Wolf Run are #2/3! 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Andy, I like Pikewood, but I was hitting three woods and hybrids into greens all day long. There is no way the average woman can play the course.  When I was looking at clubs to join it was between Pikewood and Ballyhack. As difficult as Ballyhack is my wife loves it and she can barely carry the ball 150 yards anymore.

[Greg Tallman]

Pikewood would be the perfect host facility for the "Play It Forward" campaign.

[Kevin Lynch]

Andy -

I think Pikewood did have enough Golfweek ballots (had a score on 2009 Best New list), but it was fairly low vs others like Ballyhack from the same year.  I could see the difficulty being a polarizing factor, as is the notion that it's geared towards a small subset of golfers.

It seems to me that PDGC would appeal to a much wider range of players, which may explain the huge Golfweek variance.


Tommy,

So you're saying that if Pikewood had added a couple more decks, we may not have ever met via Ballyhack?  Well, then I'm glad they didn't.  But if you run away with the next two George Cups, I may have to reach out to the folks at Pikewood to see if they can help you out.

Any thoughts on your favorite Pete Dye finishing hole?

[Greg Tallman]

I love PDGC - Obviously part of my passion stems from something so good being in my home state.

Only drawbacks to PDGC for me are 4 and 15. Quite frankly 4 was simply unnecessary and could have yielded a fine hole without use of a lake... could have been a great site for a longish redan par 3, still could be.

As for 15 the distaste is purely from a conceptual standpoint, water hazard guarding the entire length of the hole. That said in playing the hole I appreciate the strategy Dye employed here. Those steering clear of the lake from the tee are left with a rather difficult angle to get to the best layup position with the hillside protruding into your line of comfort and forcing you, or at least your eyes, toward the lake.

5 is among my favorite par 5s I have ever played

6 makes me uncomfortable and I generally hit the ball very straight

17 is just good fun

18 is a great finishing hole, even if you have seen it from Dye before you have not seen one this natural and dramatic.

Like Charlie, I prefer the front nine where 4 is the only hole I have any quibble with.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy, I like Pikewood, but I was hitting three woods and hybrids into greens all day long. There is no way the average woman can play the course.  When I was looking at clubs to join it was between Pikewood and Ballyhack. As difficult as Ballyhack is my wife loves it and she can barely carry the ball 150 yards anymore.

True. Pikewood requires length to get around. It was fun for me, but it is not for everyone. Perhaps that includes that GolfWeek panel!

To get back to Pete Dye, I really like the 18th. It may not be my favorite hole on the course, but it is one of my two favorite Dye closers, with the other being the 18th at Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys (aka the original Blackwolf Run course). Harbour Town is probably 3rd. A lot of the others are perhaps a little too similar to distinguish--Sawgrass, Crooked Stick, etc. I'm not a fan of #18 at Whistling Straits, and while I don't dislike #18 at The Golf Club, I don't think it is one of the better holes on the course.

[Jason Thurman]

I had a beautiful reply written out and then deleted it when I got distracted. You'll have to settle for this one instead.

As others do, I really enjoy the 18th. Like others, I would probably call it the best Dye closing hole that I've played. It might look similar to some of his other holes, but I think it clearly establishes its own character. As Ron mentioned, it's hard to fault him for employing the "cape" concept here (and it is a TRUE cape, with the hazard very much in play on the approach as well). Can anyone genuinely imagine a better hole on this section of the property that fits the terrain and routing better?

The setting is wonderful and the hole sits on the land beautifully. Again, we see a hole that visually flusters the strong player while allowing the weaker player to use the terrain to keep hope alive. It's funny to me that Kevin thinks this would be a fun hole to run a ball toward from a drivable distance. If you really want the thrill of hitting a long approach with a wood that trundles down the slope to the green, all you have to do is tee off from the tips and hit a really good second shot...

Pete Dye has often talked about the influence that the links of GB&I had on his designs. Part of the reason I love Pete Dye GC so much is that I think it reflects that influence so well. "Links" is a word that, in America, takes on many different meanings for golf. We say "It's a links-style course" when we really mean "It doesn't have as many trees as some of the other courses in town. We say "It plays like a links!" when we really mean "They keep the fairways firm." Well, Pete Dye GC WORKS like a links. In a decidedly parkland setting where climate makes firm and fast conditions difficult to achieve regularly, he built a course that offers a constant stream of blind shots, funny lies and stances, deep and terrifying bunkers, bumpy fairways, quirky mounds that obscure targets from certain positions, greens tucked in dells, and a steady procession of engaging holes with lots of options and few clear answers. Pete Dye GC comes closer to the spirit of links golf than any other Dye course that I've seen, and it's for that reason more than any other that I think it's his best work that I've seen.

[Matt Kardash]

I would say that the 18th at PDGC is my favourite Pete Dye closer. It is the cpe hole in his arsenal that plays the best nd fits the land the best. It totally makes sense here.
I would also go one step further and say it is one of the best closing holes in all of golf. It is a tremendous, epic finishing hole. If I had to make an eclectic 18 this hole would be a contender as an 18th hole.

[Kevin Lynch]

I had a beautiful reply written out and then deleted it when I got distracted. You'll have to settle for this one instead.

I think that's a pretty decent settlement.  Nicely said!

It's funny to me that Kevin thinks this would be a fun hole to run a ball toward from a drivable distance. If you really want the thrill of hitting a long approach with a wood that trundles down the slope to the green, all you have to do is tee off from the tips and hit a really good second shot...

I guess that just illustrates the pervasive power of par.  It's more exciting if it's trundling to get on in less than regulation.     Of course you are correct, but the thought of willingly electing to play the tips never even entered my mind.  It really should have, because I like mixing up tees when I have multiple plays at a course.

[Kevin Lynch]

Thanks for all the thoughts on Pete Dye's closing holes. 

For me, my choice comes down to PDGC and Whistling Straits.  WS has the massive scale, tumbling topography and beautiful green location.  At PDGC, the potential for the ground approach is better, but as Charlie alluded earlier, not being able to see the green is a detriment (at least for a grand finale approach).   It truly is a coin flip for me.

But I think you all generally reinforced one of the themes of this thread.  Yes, they may be templates and have some similar qualities, but when you add in the spectacular topography, you get something that is special and memorable. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Well, now that we've been through the entire course, I'd like to open things for any general macro thoughts / summaries / ideas for further discussion, etc.  We've had some macro level observations throughout, but if anyone has been saving any thoughts for the conclusion, please chime in (Jason & Greg did a nice job kicking this off).

Possible items to consider could be:

- Discussion of the ancillary aspects of the club (lodging / clubhouse / range facilities etc.)

- What things you may have learned (or reinforced) during this analysis

- How the course holds up against the elite courses you've played.  What courses do you hold in the same esteem? This thread was motivated somewhat by a question about how PDGC compares to Ballyhack, so it may be interesting to hear some other comparisons.

- Suggestions for improvement for this thread (for future use).  For example, I'm thinking of modifying my initial post to include a link to some of the other PDGC threads.  While they didn't go into this level of detail, there were many interesting observations from past GCA members who didn't take part here.  That way, this thread may serve as a comprehensive reference for discussions about PDGC.  Good idea? Bad idea?

- Anything else you can think of

[Kevin Lynch]

Not looking for judgement as these are just my personal preferences but I think it gives a good illustration of what company I hold it in.  I often wonder if I either regard it too highly because of being a member and the pride in something from West Virginia (anyone from here will understand that comment), or if I take it a little for granted because of familiarity.  I think this thread has shown me that it may be a little of both.

Perfectly said - that's exactly what I had in mind.

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