Mike Clayton and Geoff Shackelford Talk Royal Melbourne and Riviera

[Mike_Clayton]

BCowan

Not a trick question at all.
I'm curious as to what others who may know better think were his intentions. It's hard to know because as far as I know he wrote little of excessive speeds perhaps because he never envisaged the 12+ speed greens of today.
Does anyone have a clue what speeds Augusta was running in 1932?

I think all things considered. including a reasonable speed of play and the inevitable one hot windy day out of four, 11 is about right if they are hard.

[Josh Stevens]

You a Sydneysider by any chance Josh?

Funnily enough yes I was, before moving to Perth.  Sydney is not without its issues, but they tend to be more excusable as acts of God on account of the horrendous winds. Melbourne's north wind is hot and drying but not too strong, but the Southerly Buster in Sydney can be catastrophic and so they tend to try and keep the greens a little down just in case.  The final round of the 2012 Open at the lakes was played in 80kph winds, and so was won by a little short fat bloke with a compact swing.   The one and only time the Aus Open was played at the NSW golf club was pretty hairy - I recall a youtube clip from the practice rounds when one player hit a wedge from an uphill lie into the teeth of the wind and the ball was actually blown back over his head.   PGA championships at NSW regularly saw stands and advertising hoardings disappearing over the horizon never to be seen again.

[James Bennett]

Sydney weather (southerly busters) can result in storm damage.

Melbourne (and Adelaide) weather can result in really hot, strong and drying winds that can create havoc on the greens.
Especially if those greens are exposed to the wind from the north.

The north wind is a rare wind through the year, but not a rare wind in summer when major events are generally scheduled in Australia.
The member play that is likely on such days would be low - most would stay inside.  However, for a pro event, the north wind can really compromise an otherwise wonderful course and set-up.  Royal Melbourne, Royal Adelaide. Moonah Links Open have all had 'issues' with extreme north winds and pro events, although most of these are from many,many years (decades) ago.

[Jon Wiggett]

BCowan

Not a trick question at all.
I'm curious as to what others who may know better think were his intentions. It's hard to know because as far as I know he wrote little of excessive speeds perhaps because he never envisaged the 12+ speed greens of today.
Does anyone have a clue what speeds Augusta was running in 1932?

I think all things considered. including a reasonable speed of play and the inevitable one hot windy day out of four, 11 is about right if they are hard.

Mike,

the stupid thing in the green speeds debate is the speed of the green is irrelevant it is the steepness of slope that counts. If a ball will not come to rest on a slope due to its steepness then it is irrelevant if said turf is stimping at 1 or 100. Slope should be the deciding factor.

No player complains about a course being too easy so complaints about slow greens must be about being hard.

Jon

[John Kavanaugh]

After watching the 16th at Doral all week does anyone still believe that the set up at Riviera's 10th was wrong? 

[BCowan]

BCowan

Not a trick question at all.
I'm curious as to what others who may know better think were his intentions. It's hard to know because as far as I know he wrote little of excessive speeds perhaps because he never envisaged the 12+ speed greens of today.
Does anyone have a clue what speeds Augusta was running in 1932?

I think all things considered. including a reasonable speed of play and the inevitable one hot windy day out of four, 11 is about right if they are hard.

Mike,

I'm curious as well to Dr Macks intentions.  Do weather forecasts in Melbourne predict that north wind 24 hours in advance well?  If so wouldn't it be wise to adapt and raise HOC or one step further not cut the greens?   I live 3 miles from a Dr Mack course and when they get around 11, the severe greens are a little too much, plus you lose additional hole locations.  Mike, do you think one notch lower of greens at lets say 10 would yield winners score much lower (maybe a shot or two)?   Assuming greens are really hard.  I think Firm & Fast has turned into Fast & Firm and would you agree with that statement?

[Mike_Clayton]

They normally forecast them - and they are always followed up by a late afternoon storm and a wind change.
10 at RM would lower the scores a bit but not take much, if anything, from the strategic interest of the golf course. And, it would speed up play a lot.11 would be fine too.
There is firm and fast and then there is firm and fast - and RM has always been at the extreme end of both in tournaments.

[John Kavanaugh]

After watching the 16th at Doral all week does anyone still believe that the set up at Riviera's 10th was wrong? 

The discussion could become even more interesting based on the fact that both holes resulted in very near the same number of birdies. This surprised, but did not disappoint, even me.