Higher standards for GolfClubAtlas.com

[Joe Hancock]

For all the years I've been privileged to be a member of this fine group, it's always been a decent balance of opportunity to teach and learn, and community. I trust we don't let the pendulum swing too far and make the use of this site purely an academic exercise. That would truly be a step backwards.

Joe

[Bill_McBride]

For all the years I've been privileged to be a member of this fine group, it's always been a decent balance of opportunity to teach and learn, and community. I trust we don't let the pendulum swing too far and make the use of this site purely an academic exercise. That would truly be a step backwards.

Joe

I fully agree that the community aspect is vital.  The GCA-sanctioned events are an important part of this site, which means so much more to the relationships between members.  I seriously doubt that Ran would do anything to discourage this physical connectivity of GCA.com. 

Without the Dixie Cup I would never have had the pleasure of being partners in a four ball match with Joe Hancock. 

[Michael George]

Ran:

I am really supportive of your initiative.  Thanks for taking the time to take it on.  

Re: deleting posts, I hope that age will not be a factor.  Some of the older threads are really great, especially those discussions involving guys not involved anymore like Matt Ward.

I think your initiative is to get rid of threads that are more concerned with posters having some social interaction when bored.  For those concerned, I don't think Ran wants to be done with the social outings that are valued by everyone on the site, like the Dixie Cup or Buda Cup or Fifth Major).  But when discussing the off topic issues (ie. What everyone ate for dinner after the round), maybe we should take those to private emails instead of public forums.

One thing that is also important is that all of us help in this process.  Thread jacks should be stopped by all of us.  It shouldn't be left up to Ran.  However, that requires guys to stand behind people that criticize the guy that won't stay on point.  I know that I will be even more aware of whether my posts add value and won't mind if I am called out for taking the thread away from its topic.

Again, thanks.  Hope everyone has a nice holiday.  

[JReese]

As a new poster I know my opinion holds little to no weight, but I would just like to agree with Mr. Daley.  I feel like the new member intros are a great way for us newcomers to introduce ourselves.  For me at least it was, and still is, intimidating to post but getting a welcome here or there from others makes you feel like you belong.  I also feel that any religious/political posts should be frowned upon. 

With that said I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a happy and healthy New Year!

[Brent Hutto]

Michael brings up an important point. If you succeed in eliminating/discouraging off-topic threads the off-topic time wasting stuff will just show up as thread-jacks of on-topic GCA threads. Eventually you'll probably need to eliminate/moderate posts at the individual reply level. Or else just toss out entire threads if they later veer OT.

[Mark Pavy]

It would be nice to further the understanding of golf course architecture by sensibly discussing all factors that contribute.

This from wiki:

Architecture has to do with planning, designing and constructing form, space and ambience to reflect functional, technical, social, environmental and aesthetic considerations.

Furthering the understanding of what golfers like and why can only be a positive.
What aspects of the above definition are our opinions based upon?
How large a factor is space, ambience and aesthetics when determining which golf courses we like?
How much does an architect really contribute to a golf courses "ranking?

[K Rafkin]

I've noticed there have been a bunch of posts that have titles like "I never thought" or "have you ever" that provide no information on what the post is actually about.  This may be a good way to trick people to click on your thread, but it's not particularly helpful especially when you are searching the forum for something.   

[Sean Walsh]

I've never been as close to saying, or even shouting, F... OFF! and more to someone on the internet as I have been on this site this week. So yes, our standards need some improvement.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Tommy

Are you saying that instead of posting 50-75 pictures we should use photos to illustrate specific points, features, etc?

Yes, exactly!

[Sean_A]

Tommy

Are you saying that instead of posting 50-75 pictures we should use photos to illustrate specific points, features, etc?

Yes, exactly!

Naccers

Yes, thats fine if one is discussing specific points, features, etc.  I would think that usually the specifics can be narrowed own from the general tour when appropriate.  Its not an either/or proposition.  In any case, imo, 50 photos is way too many to do the job unless there is a specific reason such as documenting a course that is going under the knife etc.

Ciao   

[Niall C]

Ran

It is understood that periodically you need to do a bit of judicious pruning to reduce the clutter and irrelevant stuff that people post, me included. I do however think it a backword step to delete course photo tours, whether under the "Courses by Country" banner or by way of those posted by the likes of Sean, Mark Rowlinson, Paul Turner or whoever. While I appreciate they use up a hell of a lot of space they are IMO some of the most interesting threads. For instance Paul just bumped a 2004 photo tour he did of Windermere and that has to be one of the best photo tours I've seen on here.

Mark B also suggested County Sligo might be one to lose from the Courses by Country list. Well, of all the courses I've played once but want to play again, County Sligo is top of the list ahead of more highly rated courses. I can't say I played it because of your review as I'd played it long before I became a member on here. I do wonder however how many members or casual browsers of GCA were persuaded to go play it on the back of your review. Now that's not to say that it should be set in stone with maybe an updated review replacing it at some point perhaps ? But basically if the course was good enough to highlight then surely it's still worthy of being highlighted now ?

Niall

[jeffwarne]

Ran

It is understood that periodically you need to do a bit of judicious pruning to reduce the clutter and irrelevant stuff that people post, me included. I do however think it a backword step to delete course photo tours, whether under the "Courses by Country" banner or by way of those posted by the likes of Sean, Mark Rowlinson, Paul Turner or whoever. While I appreciate they use up a hell of a lot of space they are IMO some of the most interesting threads. For instance Paul just bumped a 2004 photo tour he did of Windermere and that has to be one of the best photo tours I've seen on here.

+1
As a frequent contributor to "Golf and College Football"
I volunteer to sacrifice that monster thread to preserve Paul's 2004 thread
Love those old photo tours that are updated over the years

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark B also suggested County Sligo might be one to lose from the Courses by Country list. Well, of all the courses I've played once but want to play again, County Sligo is top of the list ahead of more highly rated courses.

Niall

Niall...marks quest is to show which ones are gone, not which ones HE wants to depart.

Ron m.

[Kevin Lynch]

Niall,

I think Ran is referring to tours where the pictures no longer appear.  There was a change in the way pics could be posted several years ago, and some older tours just show "image not available."  These could be removed (or photo links updated).

As for the general content of the photo tours, I'm surprised we're using this call by Ran to have a debate as to the "proper" number of pictures in a tour. Some people want a general sense of a course, while others like a more detailed tour.  Neither is "correct."  I don't think the site's in danger if running out of storage space.  My reading of Ran's statement is that he wants less clutter in the topics, but not trying to dictate general vs detailed photo tours.

[Adam Lawrence]

Photographs are not stored on the GCA servers in any case... that is the whole point of having to link to an external photo hosting site.

[Brent Hutto]

The site does not "store" photos that appear in the discussion forum. Our posts have links to eternally hosted pictures. Hence the frequent broken links in old threads.

If Ran wants lots and lots of old, inferior or unpopular threads deleted it has nothing to do with storage space or bandwidth of serving images.

It's about better utilizing the "bandwidth" so to speak of the attention of readers and potential readers. He would rather an incoming viewer of the site see 1,000 valuable threads in the list of threads than have her encounter 1,000 valuable thread strewn through a list of 2,00 interspersed with OT nonsense.

It's appearances or more precisely perceived signal to noise ratio that the new policies and the ongoing cleanup effort will preserve.

Imagine being invited to a GCA golf gathering where you'll be able to play golf with a dozen or so of your long-time favorite fellow obsessives who you've met through this site. You hear that a group is getting together to play some wonderful old classic course that's been recently restored to eliminate various modern contrivances.

Then you arrive on the day and discover that yes, your dozen friends are mostly there. But nobody warned you it was a shotgun start scramble with 200 attendees and that everyone except you and your friends are cargo short wearing, backward baseball cap drunken frat boys on a spring break outing.

That's the equivalent of what Ran probably fears this site could become over time if the OT cruft keeps accumulating. High-class, high-end content and a bunch of well thought out information and opinion from some of the best minds in the business...buried under a slag heap of stuff having nothing to do with nothing.

[William_G]

Age does horrible things. The jaw line softens, chins multiply, the waist expands. Now in its sixteenth year, GolfClubAtlas.com needs to be vigilant and steer clear of soft and flabby. Complacency won’t do. We must stay on top of things, mind the details and not deviate from best practices.
 
There is a host of reasons why threads will be deleted but primarily it will be a lack of relevance to the study of golf course architecture. New posters should stop introducing themselves; the spotlight is on golf architecture, not yourself. The thread's title needs to be clear regarding what someone can expect when they click on it; people are busy and they should not have to aimlessly click on threads to glean their content. 

thank you Ran!

[Kyle Harris]

Having read Ran's comments in the initial post, not once did I come across the phrase:

"What do you think?"

Or similar phrasing requesting an opinion.

Amazing.

[Ronald Montesano]

Amazing.

That, Mr. Harris, is precisely why I stick around. The inmates don't need to run the asylum. Our warden does a fine job keeping us in our accommodations and typically changes protocol when he discovers that he has made a mistake.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Having read Ran's comments in the initial post, not once did I come across the phrase:

"What do you think?"

Or similar phrasing requesting an opinion.

Amazing.

He doesn't need to. People tell him what to do all the time.

[Chris DeNigris]

Having read Ran's comments in the initial post, not once did I come across the phrase:

"What do you think?"

Or similar phrasing requesting an opinion.

Amazing.

He doesn't need to. People tell him what to do all the time.

Even though he didn't solicit- I doubt that Ran minds the input. I'd be shocked if he didn't expect some 

Ooops- I double quoted.

[Kyle Harris]

Whoops, I was vague.

My condescending tone was directed at all the unsolicited opinions, not Ran.

All for the changes... hope to contribute more in 2015.

[Brent Hutto]

Ran is perfectly capable of posting an announcement that does not allow any replies to the thread. So I seriously doubt if he intended this one to be without comments.

[Kyle Harris]

Ran is perfectly capable of posting an announcement that does not allow any replies to the thread. So I seriously doubt if he intended this one to be without comments.

Comments, yes. Opinions are a subset of comments. There are few people that simply offered their support.

But the tone of the first post implies finality. The tone of subsequent posts giving an unsolicited opinion imply a sense of entitlement. Ran wants things to change. They shall.

[Peter Pallotta]

Nice to see Kyle back. The standards around here just went up. Now if I could just have the dicipline to stop posting so much, they'd shoot through the roof.  

Of course, 'standards' are relative - the highest possible ones probably involving no one posting save for the architects, the supers, and MET teacher of the year Jeff Warne; and with the only photo threads like those that Joe, Jon, Mark, Sean and a few others consistently deliver.

For 2015: "Personalities are out, Perspicacity is in!"