[Patrick_Mucci]

I think that's what rumpled or pitched fairways in the DZ to.

It's a really neat, if not insidious defense.

From the tee the golfer tends to see the macro features and pays little if any attention to the micro features.

And therein lies the beauty of "defense" in the DZ.

Architects can also distract the golfer's eye by introducing prominent features near the DZ, features he focuses on, to the exclusion of the fairway conditions in the DZ.

Coupled with F&F, even with wide fairways, the golfer won't know what was there until he watches his drive roll to where he didn't want it to roll.

What courses present a good example of this arrangement ?

[Peter Galea]

At NGLA, the starter said, "You're going to have a great day, these are the widest fairways in America."
I drove it in 11 fairway bunkers if I remember correctly.

I did not complain.

[Tom_Doak]

Good topic.  Did you think of it on the 2nd at Streamsong?

It is a particularly good feature on par-5 holes, because you give the golfer a choice of going for a full shot off an awkward lie, or laying back and leaving himself a longer [but reasonable] third shot.

[Brent Hutto]

I remember when the Buda Cup went to Alwoodley in 2007, the rigs and furrows in many of the fairways made the lies very random. However, they did tend to run directly across the direction of play. So the random result was more about whether you'd have an uphill or downhill (or very occasionally flat) lie rather than about deflecting the ball to one side or the other. But some were slightly diagonal and that was *really* fun. You could play Alwoodley many, many and most holes would never play the same way twice.

An even better case is Royal St. George's on the Open rota. But I've banged on often enough about it's excellence in this forum. No need to get cranked up for another round.

[Mike_Young]

It's best done in monochrome BUT that doesn't photo as well.   

[Steve Salmen]

Patrick, the hole that comes to mind for me is #15 at Tain. It's a short par 4 but the fairway is rumpled to the point where seldom do you get a flat lie. Coupled with the crowned green, you're doing well to get inside 25 ft from 50-75 yards. Great example of a hole not needing length to challenge the player.

[Chris Cupit]

I agree that this is a great topic.  Our opening tee shot presents a little of this in the form of a pitched DZ.  The hole varies from 445, 390, 345 and 330 but the DZ for most is right where the fairway pitches pretty strongly form right to left.  For the opening tee shot here is what you have:

1.  A "s" shaped creek that crosses in front of the tee, goes left all along the DZ, crosses back in front of the green at a l-r angle and goes right along side the green.

2.  The FW is wide but it is an intimidating first shot.  The "bail out" is right exactly where you would be left with a hanging right to left lie.  You would also most likely be in light rough though the right side of the fairway also pitches left.

3.  The left side along near the creek is flat and opens up a perfect angle to the green, but the creek is very much in play.

4.  Hanging a shot right also can leave you with an intervening overhanging tree branch.  The tree is on the FW side of the creek and certainly comes into play fro shots from the right rough.  Not in play from any portion of the FW.

5.  The green has the creek to its right but the green is segmented roughly into four quarters.  Front left is at grade to the bailout fairway on the left.  Front right is low and is the easisest location.  Back right is high and the toughest location by far to get a ball on that back right plateau.  Back left is high but then falls away and left.  Balls carrying to the back left section often trickle off the back of the green.

6.  There is a bunker far left of the green.  Most use it directionally off the tee but it was meant to trick you into flirting with the creek as much as anything.  It also looked cool and serves as the buffer/transition to the second tee.  When teeing off on #2 it looks like you are standing on top of the bunker.

Again, the opening tee shot is easy to "bail out" on the high right DZ side and leave yourslef the hanging lie to a green that is not receptive to a hard, hooking right handed approach

And yes, I know, the cart path is hideous    My seniors would have killed me if I moved it farther up the hill to the right and I still have to make $$$

Some pics:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Good topic. 

Did you think of it on the 2nd at Streamsong?

It's genesis was at Streamsong.

I'm not sure if it was a reflective or spontaneous idea, but, certainly, by the 4th hole of the Blue it had coalesced.

It is a particularly good feature on par-5 holes, because you give the golfer a choice of going for a full shot off an awkward lie, or laying back and leaving himself a longer [but reasonable] third shot.

[Mark Chaplin]

Deal, Rye, RStG, Littlestone, Princes, TOC, Royal Dornoch, Prestwick, Boat of Garten & Alwoodley to name but a few.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the most effective methods I've seen is the creation of a distraction that attracts the golfers "eye" like a large bunker flanking the DZ

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,

Rumpled/Pitched fairways keep a golf course from playing like it has 18 par 3s.  

[Michael Felton]

Deal, Rye, RStG, Littlestone, Princes, TOC, Royal Dornoch, Prestwick, Boat of Garten & Alwoodley to name but a few.

This /\ - especially Deal, RSG and Princes. Princes has a hole on the Dunes 9 I think it is - I've always played it as the 12th. It's a par five that runs along the edge of the property and there's a stream that runs down the entire right hand side. OOB fence across the stream. The left side is heavy rough and very sloped. There are a few stray bunkers in the middle, but the fairway is one of the most rumpled I have seen. It's just about reachable, but if you want to get there, the approach shot can't leak right at all. There's a bunker about 30 yards short on the left that protects against someone playing it in from the left, so you have to turn your approach over a little bit. If you're on the wrong side of one of the rumples in the fairway, good luck doing that. Get it wrong and a big number awaits.

RSG has holes that spit the ball into all sorts of awkward spots. 5 is the one that springs to mind. I know the pros hated 17 in 2003 because it played so narrow, but they all played 5 so downwind that they could go for the green. For normal mortals, the bunkers down the left push you to the right and then you wind up down the hill, a long way from the green and without sight of it either. You have to hit a perfect drive to get onto that left hand side at the end where you have a short shot and a view of the green. Great hole and it's that shaping in the fairway that makes it, but it certainly looks mundane from the tee. Hit it 5 yards right of target and you're adding 30 yards and a blind shot. Hit it 10 yards left and you're playing out sideways. Hit it way left and you can get lucky and have a very short shot in. Not so keen on that.

[Greg Tallman]

I agree that this is a great topic.  Our opening tee shot presents a little of this in the form of a pitched DZ.  The hole varies from 445, 390, 345 and 330 but the DZ for most is right where the fairway pitches pretty strongly form right to left.  For the opening tee shot here is what you have:

1.  A "s" shaped creek that crosses in front of the tee, goes left all along the DZ, crosses back in front of the green at a l-r angle and goes right along side the green.

2.  The FW is wide but it is an intimidating first shot.  The "bail out" is right exactly where you would be left with a hanging right to left lie.  You would also most likely be in light rough though the right side of the fairway also pitches left.

3.  The left side along near the creek is flat and opens up a perfect angle to the green, but the creek is very much in play.

4.  Hanging a shot right also can leave you with an intervening overhanging tree branch.  The tree is on the FW side of the creek and certainly comes into play fro shots from the right rough.  Not in play from any portion of the FW.

5.  The green has the creek to its right but the green is segmented roughly into four quarters.  Front left is at grade to the bailout fairway on the left.  Front right is low and is the easisest location.  Back right is high and the toughest location by far to get a ball on that back right plateau.  Back left is high but then falls away and left.  Balls carrying to the back left section often trickle off the back of the green.

6.  There is a bunker far left of the green.  Most use it directionally off the tee but it was meant to trick you into flirting with the creek as much as anything.  It also looked cool and serves as the buffer/transition to the second tee.  When teeing off on #2 it looks like you are standing on top of the bunker.

Again, the opening tee shot is easy to "bail out" on the high right DZ side and leave yourslef the hanging lie to a green that is not receptive to a hard, hooking right handed approach

And yes, I know, the cart path is hideous    My seniors would have killed me if I moved it farther up the hill to the right and I still have to make $$$

Chris, are the trees just right of the lake/left of the back tee not a problem from that back tee? Perhaps more about the photo angle but sure looks like anything but a right to left shot has been eliminated.

[Chris Cupit]

Greg,

We have removed numerous trees since those photos and while it was tight I would say that a straight shot gave a player a pretty ample corridor to get through.  Of course, a pull-slice would hit the trees on the left.  I got tired of that happening to me so I fired up the Stihls  

If you look at the second photo, on the left we removed many of the lower trees on the left such that the large pine tree (you can see the top and right of it) is now clearly visible and the only real "tree hazard" on the left.  That pine is about 175 yards off the back tee and only catches a pretty bad pull.  From the top tee many balls would fly over it actually.

On the right side, many trees (the two poplars specifically) before the first creek were removed and the huge oak tree that is visible in the same picture now dominates the right side and looks great.  It is farther down the DZ about 200 off the tee and does catch quite a few "weak, right" tee balls or half hit shots that don't carry over all of its limbs.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tons and tons of links do this, which is why links golf is the highest form of golf.

Here's a specific example I heard from Sean Arble: Royal North Devon. Some holes, like 6, you know it right away from the tee, so I'm not sure it meets your test. Some holes use blindness to hide the rumples (4, 10), others use the rushes to distract the eye (11 & 12). Still other holes like the 7th use a crowned fairway to distract your eye. The 3rd presents a bunker right where you'd otherwise want your tee ball to go.

The use of rumpled features on 10 in particular is excellent; they come into play in two ways: when you take the tiger line off the tee and "succeed," and when you come off that line just a little and hit through the fairway. Down the latter route, on the far side of the fairway sits humps and hollows with a talent for pushing your ball into rushes just left of your line (Scylla) or bunkers just right (Charybdis).

The contour combined with the bunker on 3 drove me to such distraction (pun intended) that I started purposely driving way out into the left rough. Better angle, fewer crazy lies and no killer bunkers out there. The sheep kept the grass manageable, although the firmness of the fallaway green made things extra interesting from the flier lie.

[Peter Pallotta]

One of the most effective methods I've seen is the creation of a distraction that attracts the golfers "eye" like a large bunker flanking the DZ

Pat - for me, the canted fairway impacts/affects the thinking of golfers of all skill levels, but does so differently depending on that skill level and related expectations.

Peter

[George Pazin]

Pat,

Rumpled/Pitched fairways keep a golf course from playing like it has 18 par 3s.  

Simple genius. I might have to amend my tagline, which has been the same for a decade now.

I'd argue a course like Lehigh benefits greatly from uneven stances in the landing zones of many holes. It also highlights what I like least about many modern courses: too many flat stances.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the most effective methods I've seen is the creation of a distraction that attracts the golfers "eye" like a large bunker flanking the DZ

Pat - for me, the canted fairway impacts/affects the thinking of golfers of all skill levels, but does so differently depending on that skill level and related expectations.

Peter,

Isn't course management, a product of "recognition" a critical element in the play of a course ?

If a golfer, irrespective of their handicap fails to discern, shouldn't they be punished ?

What I like about a bold feature is that it often dominates the landscape and the golfer's eye, ergo, the less discerning golfer will miss the more subtle features, such as a canted fairway.

I think you have to differentiate physical skill and ball striking from recognition skills.

I know some pretty shrewd observers, unfortunately, they're athletically challenged.
And, I know  some great ball strikers, who unfortunately, are challenged when it comes to recognition.



Peter

[Ronald Montesano]

Chris, Am I missing something? I don't see any of the ripples that Patrick the Great mentions in his opening statement.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris, Am I missing something? I don't see any of the ripples that Patrick the Great mentions in his opening statement.

I thought Patrick was talking about rumpled OR pitched fairways.  Our first hole certainly lacks "rumples" but there is a distinct pitch on the right side of the drive zone which leads to pretty severe lies with the ball above your feet.  Not the best pics and the pics don't show the severity very well.

I like the topic and thought our hole presents the golfer nice options--place safe away from the water and have a tough hanging lie second shot, challenge the creek and have a flat lie and much better angle.

I do think 99% are just trying to get across the creek and if they hit a bad shot, take a mulligan

[Ronald Montesano]

I see a slight pitch in the second tee photo. Are all of those the same hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

You read my opening post correctly.

And Ron, aka nit picker, that's "Patrick the Magnificent"  or Patrick the Exalted"  to you.

[Kevin Lynch]

Good topic.  Did you think of it on the 2nd at Streamsong?

It is a particularly good feature on par-5 holes, because you give the golfer a choice of going for a full shot off an awkward lie, or laying back and leaving himself a longer [but reasonable] third shot.

I'm glad to know I wasn't just imagining something that wasn't there.  This is one design feature that I've always enjoyed.  In fact, when I'm playing par 5s, the lie in the DZ is often the most important factor to me (especially given my aggressive inclinations).

At my home course (Byrncliff), there are slight downhill lies in the 200-240 yard range on several par 5s which always add that element of doubt (compounded by trouble right of the green). 

Regarding the deception Patrick referred to, the subtle pitch in the fairways at Byrncliff is often overlooked due to the massive scale of the slopes around the course.  Here's the 7th:

From the tee, you're focused on the larger valley slopes and centerline hazard:


But when you get to the DZ, you realize the overall downslope of the area, leading to the tough decision Tom referred to.



The 15th is similar:

From the tee, you note the big slopes left and the large fall-off to the right of the fairway.  Down the FW, it actually looks like you're hitting to an upslope:



But as you approach your drive, you see the potentially difficult lies (usually downhill).
Photo from Fairway, just shy of optimal drive zone



On a national level, Ballyhack's par 5s have awkward downhill lies in the 9th DZ (overshadowed by the cliff drop off right) and the 15th (with the centerline crater demanding your attention).  In the case of the 9th, the awkward lies are only prevalent on the left side of the fairway, with flat lies only available near the cliff side right.

[Chris Cupit]

I see a slight pitch in the second tee photo. Are all of those the same hole?

It seems this thread has brought out more "demon" than "Deacon" in you 

It is all the same hole.  You did inspire me to trudge out into the mist and take a number of more photos.  None really do a great job of showing the pitch but they may be better.  I think one point made by Pat is that it is a subtle pitch or rumple that lulls the golfer to sleep--not a sledghammer to the head 

I had a buddy take a stance on three different areas (right rough, right fairway and left fairway) to give a sense of the shots.

All the best for a great Christmas and I will get the photos up ASAP.

Chris

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

I think the use of "scale" to distract and deceive is a clever technique.

A large flanking bunker in the DZ, even one offset/removed from the fairway gets, not just the golfers attention, but his focus, thus he misses the pitch and/or subtle features he'll be forced to confront.

I forget the club and hole, but one of the neatest features I encountered in a DZ was a level mini-plateau on the left side of the fairway, offset from a good deal of surrounding contour.   Further left and slightly elevated was a large bunker.

It was essentially out of play, but it's size and clear visibility intimidated the golfer, causing him to aim away from the bunker, that for practical purposes was out of play.

Intimidated, when they drove away from the bunker and plateau toward the contoured portion of the fairway, they made the hole play far more difficult.

Very clever

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