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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2014, 10:41:57 PM »
Tom Doak,
I'm sick of that argument being put forward by you and others like Brauer.

Yes, we had a free hand, but we still built what we built, and if we get a free hand again, we'll build something cool again.

You listen to the complaints and appease the masses, we'll keep looking for the chance to do something special.


And you of all people to try and say something doesn't count because there aren't enough people around to complain about it.
Exactly what does someone complaining have to do with what is good or not?

Matthew,
I think you have your answer. When you try to build something that will elicit the fewest amount of complaints vs building something great, you get to where we are today.

Don:

I didn't mean to suggest that Wolf Point "doesn't count".  However, it's a lot easier to trust the superintendent to maintain the greens at a pace suitable for bold contours when you ARE the superintendent.  :)

Implying that everyone else is doing mediocre work because they have to deal with different situations and different clients isn't right.  I'm luckier than 95% of designers as far as the clients and sites I've had to work with, but even I could count the number of times I've "had a free hand" on the fingers of one hand ... High Pointe [until they started changing it], Apache Stronghold, Ballyneal, and Barnbougle. 

You've gotta think about who is going to play the course, and sometimes even the most famous and forward-thinking of clients over-think "the retail golfer".


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2014, 03:57:06 AM »
The 17th green at Crail Craighead is rather more extreme than 16 at NBWL.  It's on a long par 3 and on 2 levels, with several feet and a sharp slope between levels.  The larger, higher left side is protected by a large, deep fronting bunker and the lower, right side slopes right and has run offs front and right.  If you are on the high level then putting to even keep the ball on the lower level is difficult.  Having played both greens several times I would 2 putt 16 at NBWL far more frequently and would take more than 3 putts far more frequently on 17 Craighead.  I love both, by the way.  Bold, dramatic and difficult.  Too many of those in a round would be a problem but one or two?  Great.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2014, 07:26:21 AM »
 ;D ;)

Wow , great looking green .

In our area Ed Carman built some of the most intricate and bold greens in the last 15 years at Running Deer golf club in Salem County , NJ.  Crazy contours and some real brilliant stuff . Lots of differing opinions on the finished product but the greens are really quirky and bold .


Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2014, 09:29:41 AM »
Tom,
Thank you for the explanation.
Yes, I'm a little sensitive, but I do tire of the inference that courses with very little play somehow can't be judged or viewed the same as courses with heavy play. I believe there are design considerations for both, and I think if a designer does what is needed to get the most out of both situations, then he is serving his client as he should. I think that was done at Wolf Point.

The bigger issue is what has been the mechanism for the "dumbing" down of golf. I know some here will say that has not happened, but I will disagree. I think in today's design world, what is desired is a very attractive, but simplistic golf course. David Kidd thinks he got that right at Gamble Sands, but I find his quotes about how "golf should be fun again" to be nothing more than marketing hype. What is he saying, he forgot it was a game people enjoyed?

I think the dumbing down goes deeper than complaints. I think it is a matter of playing it safe as with so little work who can afford to take chances. Also, with so many architects so starved for work, there is an ambulance chaser mentality out there as well. Sorry if that offends, but I've seen it first hand.

And to bring my post back to the beginning and Wolf Point, I have had many visitors who have offered criticism. Tom's idea that no one who plays with me would criticize is just plain inaccurate. I've had a number of architects out and every single one has had some sort of criticism or difficulty in accepting what is here. I've also had some raters out and some have written, unsolicited, letters to me to give feedback and even recommend improvements. But here is what is interesting, none of the feedback is consistent. Every single bit of feedback, criticism, or head scratching has been different. So what are we to do, blow the course up and start over?
I've had one architect ask me. "why are those bunkers there?" when he easily carried them in an unusual wind. I know in the prevailing wind the bunkers in question are very difficult to carry. But in his single experience, they made no sense. That comment made me happy as it reminded me of what I had heard in Scotland about some of the bunker placements. If trained and experienced professionals can make such an observation, it tells me many have no way of understanding a golf course in one short visit. Tom, you felt the native rough at WP was too penal. One of the raters who returned a letter (he played on a beautiful windless fall day) felt the playing corridors were too wide and didn't reward driving properly.

Ran said his favorite green was 17. Another visitor said it ought to be blown up. So what do you do? What sense would it make to take all the feedback and try to appease everyone. What would we be left with?

We now have so many experts. We have guys who read a book, or contribute here, or go to a rater seminar, or serve on a green committee, and now many think they are somehow qualified to offer architectural suggestions. It is an interesting phenomenon and I don't know how to nicely say they should just play golf and leave the damn golf courses alone. Golf courses are not supposed to be perfect, but anymore it is a constant search for flaws. Even the Confidential Guide seems to start at 10 and then grade down from there. Do courses get graded up for interesting holes and features, or graded down because somehow they don't offer the proper composition to the eye, or the shot values are not right. I think it is more about taking away points then adding and I think most are on the look out for perceived flaws. With everyone on the lookout for "mistakes" and not afraid to offer "constructive criticism" is it any surprise that the best solution is to take a conservative approach? How is that working out for the game, and for the business?  
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 09:38:41 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2014, 02:24:26 PM »
Don

I understand you on the one hand.  On the other hand, if a guy is in the creation business he better learn what criticism to take on board (no matter who delivers it) and what to let fall by the wayside.  If you don't like criticism, don't show your work.  Like it or not, for most places, the golfer is the final client and what they say is important.  Your job is satisfy all corners...the designer's job is to satisfy all corners, thats why they get paid the big bucks.  Its unfair and unreasonable...so what...thats the world all over. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2014, 02:35:19 PM »
Don

I understand you on the one hand.  On the other hand, if a guy is in the creation business he better learn what criticism to take on board (no matter who delivers it) and what to let fall by the wayside.  If you don't like criticism, don't show your work.  Like it or not, for most places, the golfer is the final client and what they say is important.  Your job is satisfy all corners...the designer's job is to satisfy all corners, thats why they get paid the big bucks.  Its unfair and unreasonable...so what...thats the world all over. 

Ciao

Sean,
all comers?
As you know better than most, all critics are not created equal.

IMHO, Don's job is to satisfy his client, and that may vary from property to property and client to client.

IMHO, the biggest problem with reacting to complaints(in any setting) is that it can be dangerous to react to the most vocal, who may well be a great minority. If one were to immediately react to a single complaint by changing a feature or policy, they may well find that a majority are now UNsatisfied, and rather than express their complaint verbally, they may just vote with their feet.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2014, 02:53:12 PM »
I've got a dose of reality therapy for the optimists out there. Given enough time, 99 percent of "controversial" greens will get shot. Caretaking is a long game, a chain if you find that imagery more helpful. The goal is to keep the chain unbroken, or just as strong, despite new links (ie new owners, supers, head pros) being added regularly. As the chain lengthens, probability of failure approaches 1. It only takes ONE owner / super / pro. A depressing golf-architecture Markov Chain.

Yeah, sure, we all want to believe this isn't the way it works, but as Danny Pat Moynihan used to say, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Merry Christmas!  :-*
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2014, 03:04:13 PM »
Don

I understand you on the one hand.  On the other hand, if a guy is in the creation business he better learn what criticism to take on board (no matter who delivers it) and what to let fall by the wayside.  If you don't like criticism, don't show your work.  Like it or not, for most places, the golfer is the final client and what they say is important.  Your job is satisfy all corners...the designer's job is to satisfy all corners, thats why they get paid the big bucks.  Its unfair and unreasonable...so what...thats the world all over. 

Ciao

Sean,
Thanks for the life lesson. Very insightful.

Let me know how you like buggies and cart paths at TOC.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2014, 03:23:33 PM »
Even if a course didn't have a green like this on it I'd still love one like it for short game practice.
Atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2014, 05:09:10 PM »
Don

I understand you on the one hand.  On the other hand, if a guy is in the creation business he better learn what criticism to take on board (no matter who delivers it) and what to let fall by the wayside.  If you don't like criticism, don't show your work.  Like it or not, for most places, the golfer is the final client and what they say is important.  Your job is satisfy all corners...the designer's job is to satisfy all corners, thats why they get paid the big bucks.  Its unfair and unreasonable...so what...thats the world all over. 

Ciao

Sean,
Thanks for the life lesson. Very insightful.

Let me know how you like buggies and cart paths at TOC.

Don

Lets hope it never comes to that.  But we have to acknowledge golfers are getting older and the current core of 30-40 year olds isn't as strong  as the guys who are now in their late 60s and upwards.  Best we can shoot for is what we have now, niche markets.  I am thankful that "my" niche market of courses seems to be growing and that is due to guys like you.  But I am under no illusion that cookie cutter cart golf is going to disappear...because that is what a large segment of golfers want.  If we are very lucky, the guys like you will be able to continue doing what they want and the hope the nichers support it.  That said, even in the niche markets, criticism is good...how else does anything move on without it?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2014, 05:55:17 PM »
Sean,
I never said criticism itself is bad, but I am concerned how some courses operators respond to it.
If you take an approach like you laid out in your earlier post about trying to keep everyone happy, you are going to get in trouble because people like different things.
If one golfer wants green and complains every time you don't have a mono-color green glossy course, and another goes ballistic every time there is mud on his ball or the course is slow, you have a choice to make because you can not keep both happy.

Every course doesn't need to be everything to everyone.

The owner of Wolf Point loves his golf course. He doesn't give a hoot if you, or anyone else, likes it or not. I'm not sure why that is bad. And I'm not sure why it would be bad if a membership or owner took the very same approach.


Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2014, 06:03:40 PM »
Guys...GUYS...we've already witnessed the equivalent of carts and paths on TOC. It's called flattening the 11th green, moving the bunkers on 2 to make the right side of the green tough but fair, filling in the hollow on 7 to improve maintenance....

You're going to need a different example. Good luck.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2014, 06:09:32 PM »

The owner of Wolf Point loves his golf course. He doesn't give a hoot if you, or anyone else, likes it or not. I'm not sure why that is bad. And I'm not sure why it would be bad if a membership or owner took the very same approach.


Doesn't it depend on the goal? If operating as a financially successful business is your goal, then you have to be aware of the markets views to a point. If you are building a course for yourself that isn't intended to operate in that manner then sure, build what pleases you and ignore everyone else.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2014, 06:11:52 PM »
It's a sad state of affairs when the "Retail" golfer is the "Default" setting.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2014, 07:51:43 PM »
Sean,
I never said criticism itself is bad, but I am concerned how some courses operators respond to it.
If you take an approach like you laid out in your earlier post about trying to keep everyone happy, you are going to get in trouble because people like different things.
If one golfer wants green and complains every time you don't have a mono-color green glossy course, and another goes ballistic every time there is mud on his ball or the course is slow, you have a choice to make because you can not keep both happy.

Every course doesn't need to be everything to everyone.

The owner of Wolf Point loves his golf course. He doesn't give a hoot if you, or anyone else, likes it or not. I'm not sure why that is bad. And I'm not sure why it would be bad if a membership or owner took the very same approach.



Don

Go back and read the word "niche"...which is what WP is.  You may take that as a slap for some reason, but it ain't. 

It seems obvious to me that if my comments are rubbing you the wrong way then there should be a concern about how course operators take comments  ???

This line of discussion has become silly when comments like "every course doesn't need to be everything to everyone" are directed toward me..  I just wrote the same damn thing on the HHA thread  :o  If I upset you, I apologize, but I hope that one day we can all get past the taking stuff personally when talking about golf courses.  9 times out of 10 nothing personal is intended nor implied.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2014, 08:11:14 PM »
Sean,
you are mis-reading my emotions, really you are. I'm not upset.

I was a GM for 7 years at a for profit course and I've owned a course.

IMO, if you take the approach that you must keep everyone happy, you are doomed. You have to have a direction, a plan that guides what you do and an ability to communicate that plan.
No matter what you will get complaints, feedback, criticism, whatever you want to call it. Some comes from the same people time after time and you learn that is how they communicate. Other feedback comes from people who really want to help. But you still have to filter it through what you can actually do, and then act if it is a good idea.

As good as Bandon is, I've heard from some who want carts as they don't think they can walk for 2-3 days. IMO, and apparently in the opinion of the owners, they feel carts would diminish the experience. There are golfers who will never travel to a place that does not have carts. Luckily we have operators who know the product they want to present and stay true to it.

You do try and listen patiently and be nice, but you simply can not make every change, and when suggested changes to your golf course start coming from experts who made a single visit, you really have to consider the source.

Grant,
of course it comes down to your goals. But if you get a guy who plays your course once and suggests adding or removing a bunker, are you going to do it?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 08:16:16 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th Green at North Berwick.... Built today: If someone...
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2014, 08:46:15 PM »
Don

Again, I never advocated keeping everybody happy all the time nor acting on a ton of input from a ton of people.  But if you want to build courses for golfers, then their input should be of some value once its filtered...sticking the keeper stuff away for another time.  The bad comes with the good...it can't really be avoided. 

Jeepers, I must come across as a knucklehead if you believe I am advocating acting on everybody's input and keeping everybody happy all the time.
 
Bandon, yes, its a niche market.  That in no way implies it is inferior, insignificant or unimportant. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing