What Did Harry Carry?

[Jim_Kennedy]

10 clubs.
  

[David_Tepper]

Lawson Little won the US Open (1940), 2 US Am's and 2 British Am's carrying as many as 26 clubs in his bag. Fortunately for him he did not have to carry his bag.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Vardon - 6 Opens - 1 US Open - 60+ tournament wins in all - Little's bag should have been littler. 

[RJ_Daley]

Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago.  Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.

Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)

Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."  I was surprised he played golf!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago.  Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?

RJ,
How many clubs would you need if the ground was truly firm and fast? I think 8 would be more than enough, but sadly, we'll never see it on Tour as there's too much money in club endorsements.

Scenario: Someone in the field is going to win using 8 clubs - imagine the potential loss of revenue from club sales if the idea catches on w/the general public.  

Peter,

http://www.hickorygolf.com/about-clubs-1900--.html


 

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.

Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)

Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."  I was surprised he played golf!

Sounds like Harry had a driver, 2 and 4 and 7 woods (cleek lofted), 2, 3, 5, 9, putter.  The second mashie may have been a spade mashie (6) or mashie niblick (7).  Lot of long clubs, not many finesse clubs!

[Jim_Kennedy]

In his book, "The Gist Of Golf", he wrote:

"There are many golfers who feel that they must have at least a dozen or fourteen. Seven or eight ought to be ample - the driver, brassie, cleek, iron, mashie, niblick, and putter, perhaps, a jigger added to the equipment to give a sense of security.....I confess that, on important occasions, I carry eleven clubs, but three of these are spares and are seldom employed."

And in "The Complete Golfer" he gave specs for his set:

Club.                  Length.          Weight.
Driver                   42   inches   12¾   oz.
Brassy           42   "   12½   "
Driving mashie   38   "   14½   "
Driving cleek   37   "   13½   "
Light cleek           37   "   13½   "
Iron                   35½   "   15¼   "
Mashie           36½   "   15¼   "
Niblick           37   "   19   "
Putter            33½   "   15   "
(putting cleek)

[Tom_Doak]

Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago.  Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?

When was the suggestion by Bobby Jones?  I heard it from another architect at an open meeting in St. Andrews a few years back ... just trying to see who stole it from whom.

[Matthew Mollica]

"An undue profusion of implements often leads to hesitation in the selection of a club for a particular shot, and a general state of confusion."

And

two mashies, but no mashie niblick - the one club Bobby Jones often thought wasn't quite right.


MM

[Bill_McBride]

"An undue profusion of implements often leads to hesitation in the selection of a club for a particular shot, and a general state of confusion."

And

two mashies, but no mashie niblick - the one club Bobby Jones often thought wasn't quite right.


MM

If he carried two mashies, there had to be some differentiation.  Otherwise why two?   There's a big gap between mashie (5 iron) and niblick (9 or PW). 

[Matthew Mollica]

Bill, there's regular mashies, spade mashies, deep mashies, all of various lofts.

[Jud_T]

One of the better thread titles in recent memory, even if it should be OT...

[Jim_Kennedy]

One of the better thread titles in recent memory, even if it should be OT...

He was an architect.   

[RJ_Daley]

TD, IIRC, the attribution to RTJjr, was in one of the magazines, and an interview of him.  I wouldn't swear to it.  

I am pretty sure we discussed the concept here on GCA, as well.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  

I've just seen the light.

No need for longer courses. No need to rein back the ball. No need to for different rules for pros and amateurs.

Simply abolish the tee peg.


Brilliant!

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, there's regular mashies, spade mashies, deep mashies, all of various lofts.

That's what I was trying to say.  The article says he carried two mashies.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
Vardon's second mashie is described here:



The 'mongrel mashie' described here::

http://www.hickorygolf.com/about-clubs-1900--.html


The full article, probably the one that was condensed for the Bogalusa article:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH19131009.2.126.8

[Ben Hollerbach]

Based upon that article, it sounds very much like the second mashie was a spade mashie rather than mongrel mashie. The spade mashie was inherently a get out of trouble club while the mongrel mashie was much more similar to a long iron and ill suited for getting a ball out of rough.  Even going beyond the "sub-mashies" that were common in a players bag of the hickory era, it was also common for a player to carry 2 very similar true mashies. They were often only slightly different but could be used to play a wide variety of shots. often one would have a weaker or longer shaft that made it play differently. Since the mashie was considered the standard approach club it was good to carry two similar clubs to expand one's approach capabilities. Also, a mashie would be more similar to a modern 7 iron, not a 5 iron.

[Ken Moum]

Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.

Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)

Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."  I was surprised he played golf!

Sounds like Harry had a driver, 2 and 4 and 7 woods (cleek lofted), 2, 3, 5, 9, putter.  The second mashie may have been a spade mashie (6) or mashie niblick (7).  Lot of long clubs, not many finesse clubs!

It's also possible that the cleek was an iron.  I have both wooden and iron cleeks in my assortment of hickories.

I also have a bulldog, which is about the same as a 7 wood.

K

[Bill_McBride]

Based upon that article, it sounds very much like the second mashie was a spade mashie rather than mongrel mashie. The spade mashie was inherently a get out of trouble club while the mongrel mashie was much more similar to a long iron and ill suited for getting a ball out of rough.  Even going beyond the "sub-mashies" that were common in a players bag of the hickory era, it was also common for a player to carry 2 very similar true mashies. They were often only slightly different but could be used to play a wide variety of shots. often one would have a weaker or longer shaft that made it play differently. Since the mashie was considered the standard approach club it was good to carry two similar clubs to expand one's approach capabilities. Also, a mashie would be more similar to a modern 7 iron, not a 5 iron.

My understanding has always been that the mashie was 5 iron equal and mashie niblick was the 7 iron equal, half way between mashie and niblick.   As always I could be completely wrong!

[Matthew Mollica]

A near mint Harry Vardon Mongrel Mashie for sale on eBay currently.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Antique-HARRY-VARDON-Scotland-MONGREL-MASHIE-Wood-Shaft-Golf-Club-WOW-/311216445747?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item4875f21933

[Mike Policano]

Bill,

I agree with Ben on his club comments. Harry was probably referring the spade mashie to get out of the rough. The bigger face and lack of bounce makes that club go thru rough like a machete. The ball comes out remarkably well.

As for the mashie niblick, in my bag it is much closer to a 9 iron, especially with its distinct shape.

Interesting to see Vardon have his bag weighted toward longer clubs. I think current hickory players carry more than one niblick as opposed to more than one brassie.

Cheers, Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I agree with Ben on his club comments. Harry was probably referring the spade mashie to get out of the rough. The bigger face and lack of bounce makes that club go thru rough like a machete. The ball comes out remarkably well.

As for the mashie niblick, in my bag it is much closer to a 9 iron, especially with its distinct shape.

Interesting to see Vardon have his bag weighted toward longer clubs. I think current hickory players carry more than one niblick as opposed to more than one brassie.

Cheers, Mike

Lots of variations.  I have a Laurie Auchterlonie mashie niblick I bought from the shop in St Andrews and it's close to my 8 iron in loft. 

Merry Christmas Mike!

[Bruce Katona]

For us on this this side of the pond.....not much of a tune, but what a classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo9fEADUqPs