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Brent Hutto

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2014, 07:23:33 AM »
Stableford competitions are far preferable to these guys. They love the challenge of a forced carry but not the terminal consequences to their card that they risk in a medal round. The handicapping system enables them to compete from the same tees on a level field.

Do Stableford competitions find much if any favour in the States?

Duncan,

A very popular way of scoring regular "dogfight" game (what you might call "roll up" I believe) at many clubs is what we call a points game. Basically Stableford scoring. In its most popular form it counts up each player's gross Stableford points then adds in points at the end representing the handicap strokes, rather than applying the strokes to certain holes and do net Stableford.

I think the reason that game is preferred is because you don't want to hang about all day while double-digit handicappers try to grind out their occasional 9 or 10 on a hole where they lost three balls.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2014, 11:01:08 AM »


Maybe. I've heard an awful lot of hatred though from intellectually challenged average golfers because "my ball won't stop on the green."

As you said, good golfers can play both. Unfortunately, one of those options is more akin to darts than snooker. I prefer snooker.

Paul,
The guys I play with  wish to play the best they could and become better and better.  If you begin to play with those guys you will lose if you just play snooker.    However this site provs there is a very small element of the game that enjoys just walking, hitting the ball and finding it and hitting it again.  For that guy the hype and talk of the ground game etc may be all he needs. 

But then that is dependant on the course, hence the historic promotion of courses which ask more of the player than simply giant darts. I promise you that your friends would soon come unstuck at my links if they attempted to negate trouble with an aerial approach to the game. And it's that greater thought which I honestly think hooks people to the game long after most people that haven't experienced that sort of game have concluded that golf is nothing more than an occasional hobby for them.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2014, 01:02:23 PM »


But then that is dependant on the course, hence the historic promotion of courses which ask more of the player than simply giant darts. I promise you that your friends would soon come unstuck at my links if they attempted to negate trouble with an aerial approach to the game. And it's that greater thought which I honestly think hooks people to the game long after most people that haven't experienced that sort of game have concluded that golf is nothing more than an occasional hobby for them.
[/quote]

Nope, they've played those courses.  They would play what was required.  You menation the "greater thought" concept above.  I think it's just the opposite in that so many that spout the ground game don't really know how to play...they have no idea what "greater thought" is when it comes to scoring.  JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #103 on: December 29, 2014, 01:17:41 PM »
As evidenced by this very thread, far too many people - even thoughtful people - can't understand the difference between a strategic carry and a stupid carry. So the stupid carries tend to proliferate... along with the stupid posts........ :)

Sure, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but sometimes a carry is stupid. As Andy points out, sometimes it's not the architect's fault (enviro restrictions, etc), but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

I don't believe that those criticising stupid carries are advocating dumbing down courses, they're simply requesting more thoughtful carries and fewer stupid carries.

Black and white architecture < grayscale architecture < full 32-bit color architecture!

Happy New Year everyone!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #104 on: December 29, 2014, 01:42:09 PM »
As evidenced by this very thread, far too many people - even thoughtful people - can't understand the difference between a strategic carry and a stupid carry. So the stupid carries tend to proliferate... along with the stupid posts........ :)

George,

Would you cite the "stupid" carries at Merion, Oakmont, Pine Valley, NGLA, GCGC, Shinnecock, Streamsong and Hidden Creek ?

Thanks


Sure, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but sometimes a carry is stupid. As Andy points out, sometimes it's not the architect's fault (enviro restrictions, etc), but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

I don't believe that those criticising stupid carries are advocating dumbing down courses, they're simply requesting more thoughtful carries and fewer stupid carries.

Black and white architecture < grayscale architecture < full 32-bit color architecture!

Happy New Year everyone!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #105 on: December 29, 2014, 01:55:54 PM »
There are none at Oakmont. Gotta think about Hidden Creek. Haven't had the pleasure of playing the others. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2014, 06:27:48 PM »
Ivan,

One of my most memorable rounds of golf was at Little Met which is part of the Metroparks courses in Cleveland, Ohio.

I once stumbled upon a document that Stanley Thompson, the famed Canadian golf architect, designed the course. Maybe he did. I don't know. But Little Met is not a place to study golf architecture.

Or maybe it is.

Little Met is a 9 hole course about 2,600 yards. Really, there are no interesting or challenging holes. No good greens or bunkers. And, there are certainly no forced carries.

What you will find at Little Met is what it is like to be a beginning golfer and how hard the game really is.

So, one day I went down to Little Met and got fixed up up a guy who was, to be kind, a really bad golfer. No way he could compete with a 36 handicap. But, there was one thing I noticed about the guy: he seemed to be having a great time. Being an awful golfer didn't bother him. In short, he seemed to love the game.

When we reach the 8th hole, I finally addressed him about how much he seemed to enjoy playing. Yes, he assured me, "he loved it".

Then, I made the mistake of saying "yes, I love golf too, especially when you get to play good courses".

The guy immediately replied that he once played a good course and never wanted to do that again.

When I asked why, he said: "I already played a good course. There was this hole where you had to hit the ball 100 yards over water. I never want to do that again!".



Thank you Tim!

Now to continue reading the thread and see if you get ridiculed. I certainly get ridiculed when I put forth the view of such players. Most here seem to think guys like you report on here don't exist, or "should take lessons".
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2014, 06:34:21 PM »
I guess that's where I disagree. I think the point of a 90 yard carry is to intimidate lesser golfers and discourage beginners, seniors and women who lack length. I can't imagine anyone else even noticing it. It's solely to punish those less fortunate. As if they need to be punished!

And that's why all the fuss.

To me, a forced carry like the 16th - or even the 15th - at Cypress is thrilling. A 100 yard carry to the fairway is just someone's way of annoying those of us who are prone to the occasional absolute duff shot. And that happens more often to casual golfers than it probably should, but that's life. I hit enough really nice shots that most people I play with are shocked at what my final score is (I do try to play by all the rules, save the occasional lost ball drop, where I add 2 strokes). I find nothing thrilling or exciting about a carry that I can make with a wedge. I find them annoying.

But maybe that's just me!

No, it's not just you. And, annoying is a very good word for it. And, finally it is even more annoying to play with another duffer that says the carries are fun, because they are a challenge all the while failing to make the carry several times in succession.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2014, 06:51:50 PM »
I always loved forced carries as it put a premium on hitting the shot the distance required, but I guess after reading thru this thread, it is too penalizing for too many players.

Why do you need more than 18 of them? 18 approach shots "put a premium on hitting the shot the distance required". I'm guessing that concept has been tested enough without putting stinking ponds in the way other places on the course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2014, 07:06:40 PM »
Paul,

I'd have to contest your preference in the realm of practicality, if not necessity.

I recently played Streamsong and the course was very Fast and FIRM.

Play to the greens was anything but darts, but, in order to reach a good number of the putting surfaces an aerial approach was required.

In addition, the ground game can only function properly if the terrain permits it.

Examples that many might identify with are the 4th on the Blue and perhaps the 7th and/or15th on the Red.
Approaching # 4 Blue on the ground is impractical if not impossible.

In addition, the ground has a greater chance of deflecting my shot away from the intended target, versus air.

In most instances, I can be far more precise with an aerial shot than I can with a ground shot.

Under windy conditions a modified combination of both can be effective.
[/quote

I'd agree with all of that, hence firm and fast courses resist low scoring in a way that hasn't been achieved by softer courses despite the endless procession of more length. It's no coincidence that a firm and fast Open Championship taxes the best more, as was equally true of the US Open this year at a firm and fast Pinehurst. When conditions are soft, all anyone can think of is the mind numbing defence of longer and thicker rough adjoining 20 yard wide strips of short grass.

Mike,

I will respectfully (genuinely) refer you to the point I made in my first post on the thread. It needs a considered approach and a full book by the likes of Tom Doak to give a valuable, full answer to this question.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2014, 09:07:27 PM »
GJ & George,

Maybe you're playing from the wrong tees !

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #111 on: December 29, 2014, 09:12:05 PM »
GJ & George,

Maybe you're playing from the wrong tees !

Patrick,

See http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60189.msg1424158.html#msg1424158

Do you want me to move forward? Given that I was having so much fun?

Note, there are no forced carries over water at Chambers Bay.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #112 on: December 29, 2014, 10:59:21 PM »
GJ,

I think that the concept of moving forward is a function of whether your game is improving or on the decline, and..... maybe......static.

One of the great things about golf is the almost universal quest to "aspire" to improve.

That "quest" seems to transcend the fact that one's game is either on the rise or decline.
I think there's a "golfing blind spot" in our brain that won't acknowledge are true abilities.
It's probably a defense mechanism.

I think it was Rotella who stated that golf was such a difficult game that golfers have to look beyond themselves and blame someone or something else for their shortcomings.

And, I think that the concept of "moving up" may be an admission of our shortcomings.

The decision as to which tees to play appears to be a state of mind.
Unfortunately, like the sheep, our minds lie to us.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2014, 12:11:25 AM »
...
The decision as to which tees to play appears to be a state of mind.
...

Or, maybe it is dependent on the course. Narrow and penal, play forward. Wide and forgiving play back and have fun.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ivan Lipko

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2014, 05:23:40 AM »
Great discussion here.

Basicallly, I noticed two ideas.

1. Golf course should be playable to all, including elderly, children and women.

2. Aerial game is no fun, because it is one dimensional and thus easy.

To this I say,

1. I agree, that's why we have different sets of tees. There must be  tees that basically start on the fairway at any course. That's where the beginners should play. And, of course, there always has to be a route around hazards, making it playable according to the rules, without having to grab the ball and put it on the green.

2. I don't think golf is easy. Even on a calm day, I haven't seen too many players destroying the course hitting perfect straight aerial shots to the perfectly flat greens and shooting 62s.
A firm and fast course with uneven fairways, approaches and greens and steady gusty wind is more unplayable than any forced carry monster. Yes, you won't lose balls, but you won't make too many pars, birdies and even bogies. You can't control the ball consistently so that you can play under par in these type of conditions, that's why pros hate it. Too much depend on luck on these courses. It's fun and it is quirky, but it is no sport.

Imagine playing tennis or soccer over humps and bumps, how fun would that be?

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2014, 06:43:28 AM »
Ivan,

5 pages of responses and that's your takeaway?  You understand that firm and fast can be difficult and don't like it for that reason?  Your mistake is attributing that difficulty to luck.  In most cases it has nothing to do with luck but more to do with an inability (or unwillingness) to think about what will happen when the ball hits the ground or an inability to control the trajectory at which it does.  At the very top level More skillful golfers like fast and firm because it helps differentiate their game from lesser golfers.  Woods winning at Hoylake?  Michelson at Muirfield?  Examples of the most skilled player in the field winning out by using the conditions to their advantage.

Your interpretation of skill is the ability to hit the ball high and far.  You appear to ignore the skill required to control distance and trajectory and to play different shots for different conditions.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brent Hutto

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2014, 06:57:33 AM »
Mark,

The world is full of golfers like Ivan who believe the purpose of the game is to test how high, how far and how straight you can hit the ball, along with how well you can control the distance it travels through the air. A lot of those folks (not speaking for Ivan) spend an inordinate amount of time by my reckoning on the practice range, standing in front of a video camera or being measured by a Trackman to develop their capabilities to hit higher, straight, more accurate shots more consistently.

Golfers with that sort of aspirations quite rightly prefer long courses with forced carries, penal hazards, basically whatever features are the most demanding of maximum height, distance and accuracy. Because the purpose of the golf course is to enable them to hit "far and sure" shots under exacting requirements. Then back to the practice tee to "get better" and try again next time.

With that mindset, it would seem natural to deride firm-and-fast fairways as a tricked up situation that lets weaker hitters roll the ball for extra distance while often causing "random" or at least hard to anticipate movement of the ball after it has been hit high, long and straight. Such a course setup obscures the test. It does not clarify the difference between a good, strong shot and a better, stronger shot. It turns the whole enterprise into a game rather than an examination.

Ivan,

If my comments do not apply to yourself, please do not take offense. Whether you are one of them or not, the world of golf and particularly the world of internet golf forums (this one somewhat excepted) is full of people who are far more interested in exhibiting the strength and state of development of their golf swing than playing a simple game and hitting a ball so it bounces along the ground eventually rolling into a hole.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2014, 09:48:05 AM »
A firm and fast course with uneven fairways, approaches and greens and steady gusty wind is more unplayable than any forced carry monster. Yes, you won't lose balls, but you won't make too many pars, birdies and even bogies. You can't control the ball consistently so that you can play under par in these type of conditions, that's why pros hate it. Too much depend on luck on these courses. It's fun and it is quirky, but it is no sport.

Imagine playing tennis or soccer over humps and bumps, how fun would that be?

Now this is getting interesting.

The conditions you describe above are certainly challenging, but they're far from dependent on luck. In fact, I would argue that the Open has proven that such conditions greatly and almost unfailingly reward the most gifted ballstrikers - the men most capable of controlling their ball when faced with multiple variables like uneven lies, firm conditions, high winds, and unforgiving bounces. While it takes undeniable talent to hit the ball high and straight every time, it takes far more talent to control the ball like Hogan or Woods or any other number of Open champions who can hit the right shot for a situation even if it isn't a stock high straight ball. To comprehensively test a player's game, courses need MORE variables, not fewer.

That's what links golf provides in spades: variables. I'll defend your love of the aerial game to an extent. I enjoy hitting shots that hang in the air for a long time, and I enjoy the occasional forced carry. But if your argument is that drop-and-stop golf in soft conditions is a better test, and that courses whose presentation accommodates or even encourages ground game options are too reliant on luck, then I think you're confused. The more variables in play that affect the ball's journey (wind, humps, hollows, firmness, uneven lies), the more skill required to navigate them. It's just icing on the cake that some of those variables also serve to make the game more fun for players who lack the skill required to really score well but who still enjoy watching their ball move with the wind, bounce along the ground, and roll out farther than usual.

Your tennis and soccer comparison makes no sense, as the very thing that makes golf special is that its playing fields aren't static. As the venue changes, so do the shots required and the possible outcomes change along with them. Here's a more apt comparison: If we were going to have a contest to find out who's the best driver, would we do it on a long, straight road where the person with the fastest car will win with little emphasis placed on handling or controlling the vehicle in adverse conditions? Or would we do it on a narrow, winding road with loose pavement and hazards that fully test our abilities to control the car in every situation? I know I think the latter would be the better test, and perhaps more importantly, it also sounds a lot more fun and interesting. The long, straight road is a lot like an aerial golf course where the longest and straightest hitter will win almost every time. The narrow, winding road is more like a links course, as it requires creativity and a more comprehensive set of skills to navigate. It takes skill to hit the high straight ball, but that's just one of the 9 flights that good players try to hone and a course that never calls for deviation from that one flight isn't a very good test at all.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Brent Hutto

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2014, 09:55:10 AM »
To Jason's excellent car and driver analogy I'd add one other observation. Golf is one of the few sports where each player play independently of any action taken by the other player(s). When I am playing my shot there isn't a thing in the world an opponent can do to make it harder or easier or to vary the type of challenge I face.

The ever-changing playing field and the fact that golf balls would just as soon bounce or roll as fly through the air lends the necessarily variation in the challenge and provides the uncertainty and need to react that are provided by opponents in most other sporting games.

To use the tennis example, you don't need the tennis court to cause one ball to bounce higher than another. That is up to the opponent to produce with his shot. Your golf opponent can not put english or topspin on your approach shot to force you to react. That is up to the golf course.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2014, 10:25:07 AM »
GJ & George,

Maybe you're playing from the wrong tees !

Nope. I can carry the ball plenty far, more than far enough for just about any forced carry in the game. I  just don't particularly care for lost balls or penalty drops on the occasional horrible tee shot, when the horrible tee shot is more than enough to deal with. I don't believe the majority of forced carries are thoughtful, merely excessively penal to those who least need the penalty.

Most HHers aren't lacking in the ability to get the ball airborne, which is what some on this thread seem to think. Even a 36 handicapper is taking only 2 additional shots per hole; when you consider how poor their short games are, it's not unreasonable to conclude they are losing 1 shot off the tee and approaches and 1 around/on the green. You don't shoot 100 by topping the ball constantly or lacking the ability to get it airborne. You just hit a wider variety of shots that get you in trouble. And that's not even counting bogey golfers, who are on average losing about a stroke a hole. You don't do that struggling to get the ball airborne.

People who can't get it airborne at all aren't HHers, they are beginners who don't even keep score. That's what ranges, par 3s and little 9 holers are for, learning to scrape it around. Similarly, people who'd like to see the occasional mishit accommodated are not asking for hazards to be removed from the game, they're asking them to be thoughtfully placed.

Aren't you a "one set of tees is ideal" kinda guy, anyway? :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brent Hutto

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2014, 10:34:38 AM »
George,

I learned the game 20 years ago on a course that wasn't a little Par 3 or executive course. And I sure as hell didn't learn it at a driving range.

I lived right down the street from a somewhat scruffy course with tiny greens, unirrigated fairways, few bunkers and only a couple of short forced carries on the entire 27 holes. Played about 6,000 and a few hundred more from the tips but it played shorter because the ball rolled and again, few forced carries (and none even close to being 90 yards across).

Tiny little Par 3's and whatnot squeezed in to tiny parcels of land bounced by swamps or houses are the absolute worst place to introduce a beginner to the game. It teaches them to steer the ball and inculcates a serious degree of fear and second-guessing about whether each shot will lose a ball (or break a window on a house or go into a busy street!).

No, put them out on a couple hundred acres of golf course that hasn't been tricked up with forced carries, penal hazards and all-carry shot requirements. Let their 50-yard-offline bad shots be hopefully recoverable or if not at least make sure they can stay on the property if they open their shoulders up and hit a wild one.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2014, 11:21:40 AM »


A firm and fast course with uneven fairways, approaches and greens and steady gusty wind is more unplayable than any forced carry monster. Yes, you won't lose balls, but you won't make too many pars, birdies and even bogies. You can't control the ball consistently so that you can play under par in these type of conditions, that's why pros hate it. Too much depend on luck on these courses. It's fun and it is quirky, but it is no sport.


Alister MacKenzie disagrees with you on this. He points out that the better players gain an advantage playing from uneven fairways and greens. The objection that better players have is that it prevents them from going way low. So what are you playing golf for? To hit from driving range lies, or to test your skills?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2014, 12:10:02 PM »


A firm and fast course with uneven fairways, approaches and greens and steady gusty wind is more unplayable than any forced carry monster. Yes, you won't lose balls, but you won't make too many pars, birdies and even bogies. You can't control the ball consistently so that you can play under par in these type of conditions, that's why pros hate it. Too much depend on luck on these courses. It's fun and it is quirky, but it is no sport.


Alister MacKenzie disagrees with you on this. He points out that the better players gain an advantage playing from uneven fairways and greens. The objection that better players have is that it prevents them from going way low. So what are you playing golf for? To hit from driving range lies, or to test your skills?


Exactly. And as I said on page 1 of this thread:
Ivan,

Respectfully, read far more from some of the ODGs or perhaps Tom Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course and I think you'll have a far better grasp of the notion. You have, quite reasonably, asked for clarification. Unfortunately, that clarification would take at least fifty pages. It is a gross simplification to think that firm and fast is simply a concession to less able players.


Essentially, we can either go on spoon feeding information or we can implore Ivan to get an education on the subject the old fashioned way, i.e. read the relevant books and play more proper courses. To begin, still possibly the best two book I've ever read on the subject. :

The Anatomy of a Golf Course - Tom Doak
Economy in Course Construction and Green-Keeping - Dr. Alister Mackenzie

I'm not sure that there's really much to add, excellent though some of the responses have been.
 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Brent Hutto

Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2014, 12:24:29 PM »
I doubt very much that Ivan wishes to be further "educated" about the opinions of people who do not share his fundamental assumptions and who do not see the game as having the same ends as he is pursuing.

If you want golf to be a feat of strength and coordination, with the winner being the strongest and fastest golfer with the best swing mechanics the Doak or MacKenzie have very little to offer.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forced carries and air game - why all the hatred?
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2014, 12:28:13 PM »
George,

I learned the game 20 years ago on a course that wasn't a little Par 3 or executive course. And I sure as hell didn't learn it at a driving range.

I lived right down the street from a somewhat scruffy course with tiny greens, unirrigated fairways, few bunkers and only a couple of short forced carries on the entire 27 holes. Played about 6,000 and a few hundred more from the tips but it played shorter because the ball rolled and again, few forced carries (and none even close to being 90 yards across).

Tiny little Par 3's and whatnot squeezed in to tiny parcels of land bounced by swamps or houses are the absolute worst place to introduce a beginner to the game. It teaches them to steer the ball and inculcates a serious degree of fear and second-guessing about whether each shot will lose a ball (or break a window on a house or go into a busy street!).

No, put them out on a couple hundred acres of golf course that hasn't been tricked up with forced carries, penal hazards and all-carry shot requirements. Let their 50-yard-offline bad shots be hopefully recoverable or if not at least make sure they can stay on the property if they open their shoulders up and hit a wild one.

Interesting take. I didn't spend much time no the range before learning, but I played enough sports growing up that I never had trouble with a basic swing.

At any rate, the par 3s and little 9 holers in my area sound more like the course you learned on.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04