Camden CC (Camden, SC)

[Brent Hutto]

I know there are preexisting threads about the recently Kris Spence renovated but after playing there yesterday for the first time post-reno I'm starting another. So there!

Generally speaking, the changes seem to me:

a) rather on the subtle side and
b) improvements to the course

Neither of which are givens in renovation work. I'll caveat that by saying while yesterday's round was either my 9th or 10th at Camden over the years it had been around four years since my last visit. So my memory of the pre-renovation course is not comprehensive by any means.

Mostly I wanted to single out the Par 3 holes at Camden for particular praise. Whether pre- or post-renovation that set of five one-shotters is about as good collectively as any course I can recall playing. The fact that they are interesting, varied, difficult and memorable without a damned pond in play is a mark of distinction in my book.

I mean any competent course designer can provide a visually spectacular and/or scorecard busting Par 3 hole across water, to a peninsula green, island green or with water hazard on one flank and a big bunker on the other. Only a few UK courses of my acquaintance provide an interesting set in spite of not relying on the water-feature crutch.

My least favorite is the drop-shot 2nd hole but that's mostly because of the overhanging trees narrowing the airspace corridor. It's a pretty "naff" presentation as far as I'm concerned and I'm saying that as one of this forum's few tree-lovers. I've got to say a few courses I could think of have drop-shot Par 3's that I'd rather play than Camden #2 but even with the tree limbs it is a very fun and exciting hole. Any course where that's the weakest one-shotter is a pretty darned fine one!

My favorite (and I imagine other people's as well) is the short-iron eighth hole. Wow what a green. Like something you'd find at Dornoch (which by the way is the one course that comes to mind as hitting in Camden's weight class Par 3 wise). If it had to be played with a 5-iron in hand it would be ridiculous. Playing from 103 to 140 yards (depending on tees) it is sublime. All-world hole.

Honorable mention goes to the 170+ yard sixteenth. Lucky breaks from Mr. JC Jones aside it is a marvel of late-round difficulty which, despite it's propensity for putting a 5 on my scorecard, sets up to my eye as the most inviting tee shot you'd ever want to see. I look at that green from the tee and think something like "Wow, you've got to hit a *great* shot here to have a chance...but doggone it that looks like a shot I ought to be able to hit". Not sure I've ever been on that green in regulation in around 10 tires, maybe fringe once or twice.

Finally one note about a non-Par 3 hole. Yet again I carded a double-bogey 6 on the fifteenth hole. I think I've made 6 all but a couple of times I've played it. Never better than 6 though. A rarity yesterday was being just five yards short and left of the green after two strokes. I don't know if anything has been "softened" about that green by Kris Spence but a too-firm chip and three putts later I was holing out for the same old double-bogey I've made repeatedly on the old version. Damn that scorecard wrecking green!

[Tim Gavrich]

Brent--

To support your claim about the quality of the par threes at Camden, I'd have to say I think the 8th might be my third-favorite of the one-shotters there! I enjoyed the longer ones--the 12th and 6th--in particular, as they coax the longer clubs out of the bag on a courses where quite a few other approaches are played with shorter clubs. They cause the course to play a little longer and they supply some critical variety in the shots the golfer faces, which makes them even more critical to the success of the course than the splendid eighth.

Just my two cents. There is so darn much to like at Camden.

--Tim

[Richard Hetzel]

Brent,

How major were the renovations? I played there back in 2007 on my way to MB and really enjoyed the round.

[Brent Hutto]

Unless you're one of those guys with the eidetic memory for golf holes, you might well stop in there again tomorrow and think they'd done nothing.

Although a fairly observant person familiar with the grasses we use around here might notice that all the greens are now Mini-Verde instead of whatever older Bermuda hybrid they were previously.

And there are some decent-sized areas that were formerly Bermuda rough that are now sort of Pine Valley/Pinehurst style sandy patches with tufts of wiry grass (not nearly as expansive as the new Pinehurst #2, just in key places here and there).

Otherwise, only enough softening of contours to regain pinnable area. But there are still extensive use of like 4% grades within the greens and most of the rolloffs and false fronts still seem to be there as far as I can tell.

New tee boxes:

--To make #7 a short, dogleg-right Par 5 instead of a long, dogleg-right Par 4

--To make #14 a very long Par 4 instead of have #13 and #14 play as back to back shortish Par 5's

--Another place or two that I didn't notice because I was playing the up tees

A minor but very favorable improvement was taking that silly little lower tier of putting green on #11 and returning it to a bunker as originally designed.

But really, if you've only played there once before probably the Par 4/Par 5 changes with new bees and the small waste areas would be the only things likely to stand out at first look.

[Scott_Park]

I couldn't agree more about the 8th hole.  The contours in the green shrink the target depending on where the pin is and the bunkers and chipping areas lead to a number potential short game shots.

And this all comes after the short par 5 7th where a good drive cuts the dogleg and can leave the golfer with a 180 yard second shot to a smaller green with a couple of bunkers.  Sounds easy, except the slopes and hollows on and around the firm green make laying up worth considering.  It is such a great shot that will leave you smiling or pulling your hair out.

And then you get to play the 8th...

[Bruce Wellmon]

THE most important question is did you see Jamey?

[Brent Hutto]

Bruce,

No, I didn't play with Jamey but we conducted a *very* thorough telephone debriefing afterwards.

Scott,

Being a very short hitter I was playing the #2 tees so on the seventh I was able to hit my driver through the dogleg and over near those trees toward the eighth green. From there I was able to reach the left greenside bunker and have a sand shot for eagle. Standing down in that bunker and watching the ball roll toward the hole I just *knew* it was going in for a three.

After clambering up onto the green I saw it was a good 4 feet short after all (back hole location). Too bad, I've never made an eagle from a bunker before! I agree with the characterization I read in another thread that the seventh hole is a fine "sporty" Par 5. Can't imagine ever actually having a ball get on the green and stay there from 190+ yards out but it's fun to try!

[Amol Yajnik]

I had a chance to play this course in early November for the second time.  I played from the back tees, and I thought it played a good bit longer than the yardage from those tees, which is just shy of 6500 yards.  Some of that was because the temperature barely made it above 40 degrees that day, but also some of the longer par 3s play uphill as well (6, 12, and 16 all come to mind) which makes one use the top of their bag more than you think when you look at the scorecard.  The variety of shots was fun.  On 5, which is a short par 4 that was playing downwind, I hit 3 wood off of the tee to about 50 yards short of the green.  6 was a crosswind that was 220 to the center of the green, and I had to hit a really good 3 wood just to make the putting surface.

The greens were really interesting to me.  Lots of movement throughout those greens, and I imagine that the members there know a good bit about which sides of the greens to play to as opposed to just firing at the pin which I did most of the day, which wasn't a good strategy.  7 is a short par 5 but that green is extremely tricky, and 8 is no bargain either.  It's a course where I haven't scored all that well in either round that I played, but I enjoyed both rounds and want another crack at taming those greens.

[Brent Hutto]

Before the redo I had played there on quite a few occasions and I think my best result was an 86, which is net even par for my current handicap but was several stroke under my 'cap back then. Mostly I tended to net scores around +5 to +8 or so, playing from the #3 tees.

My capsule summary of the course goes something like this. It suits me very well, emphasizing the very elements of golf that I most highly prize. But it does not suit *my game* well at all because just steering the ball to the widest part of the fairway, then aiming for the center of the green is not really sufficient to the task Camden presents.

My own club suits my game much better. Bigger greens to aim at. Aiming for the middle and mishitting the ball tends to leave a lot of fairly basic chip and pitch shots. Long lag putting (which I'm pretty decent at) is emphasized. There is not often a whole lot of advantage to being on one side vs. the other of a fairway.

So I find Camden a fascinating puzzle to crack. If I played there regularly my handicap index would probably make a quick upward correction due mostly to the frequency with which shots that seem pretty decently aimed and struck are rejected by the greens into spots that highlight the lack of precision in my short game.

In a conversation with Jamey Bryan I mentioned one thing that struck me about the "new" Camden CC. I've never seen a Bermudagrass course that so amply illustrates that old adage "get the ball on the ground as quickly as possible". Most courses around here that I play are perfectly accommodating of a in-betweener chipping approach. Not necessarily flying a lob wedge all the way to the hole but tossing a lower lofted wedge halfway there, letting it release and run out.

There's just never any room for doing that at Camden, unless you can choose that "hit and release" point very carefully and then land within a foot or two of it every time. My round Wednesday quickly sent me scurrying for my trust 8-iron chip shot that goes about ankle-high for several yards then rolls the other 90% of the way.

[Jamey Bryan]

My favorite activity, commenting on Camden Country Club on Golf Club Atlas!!

First, Brent and Tim’s comments regarding Camden’s par 3 holes are fairly typical for visitors.  These holes are the “guts” of the course and are incredibly varied; ranging from (back tees) 140 yards to 245, on a course of under 6500 yards total.  I really can’t choose a favorite among them, each has it’s own trademark.  The recently retired Carolinas Golf Association Director of Competitions once described #2 as the hardest par 3 to hit in two he’d ever seen…..  Miss left and you’re faced with a bunker shot to a green running away from you, miss right and the bunker shot is generally 6’ to 8’ below the green surface, and long is well and truly dead.  #6 is just a brute of a 245 yard shot, difficult even if a hundred or so trees were taken out (needed and gradually being addressed).  #8 has a green that makes the hole play completely differently depending on the day’s pin placement.  #12 (Camden’s only COMPLETELY original Donald Ross hole) is a challenging approach to a green where you must not be above the hole, and #17 is a simple, but very difficult hole especially with it’s placement in the round.  Anyone playing the one shotters close to par will have the opportunity to have a very fine round.

Kris has done an outstanding job (it’s an ongoing process) with the restoration.  Generally, the marching orders were:

1)   Restore the green complexes, as much as possible, to play as Ross intended when built in 1938.  An unfortunate 2000-01 renovation had unintentionally rendered several more severe than was originally the case, making them only marginally playable.
2)   Eliminate a significant amount of rough, returning those areas to natural hardpan/sandy waste areas.
3)   Eliminate a number of shallow, “clamshell” bunkers that had been added over the years, restoring both Travis and Ross features which had either been eliminated or lost.

As Brent said, most of the changes are fairly subtle and might not be noticed by a casual or very occasional visitor. 

#1   Probably the most visually striking change to the course was the elimination of rough on the right the length of the hole, and addition of a number of Travis style bunkers and chocolate drop mounds on the left between the 150’ and 100’ markers.  Originally a par 5 shortened to a 4 when the swimming pool was added in the ‘50s, these changes tend to bring back the challenge to the approach, as better players are laying further back to avoid the bunkers.

#2   Left bunker was rebuilt and extended through the front of the green.  Largely done to address a drainage problem, this has greatly improved the look and playability of the hole.

#3   Green was significantly recontoured to recapture lost pin positions.  This green has a front/back and right/left total elevation change resulting in an average slope of around 8%!  Kris creatively crafted pinnable plateaus within this great green.

#4   Rebuilt left front bunker, extending the front across the fairway as Ross had it.  A new grass bunker beyond the left edge of this trap is a neat feature.  The green was slightly recontoured to recapture a back right pin, and to recapture a spine running into the green from a mound at its rear (a feature Ross incorporated numerous times in his design drawings, and which Kris rebuilt in this renovation).

#5   Reshaped the green so that the entire surface is useable (before, the bottom left HALF of the green was unpinnable).  Again, a spine running into the green from a rear mound was recaptured.

#7   This hole was changed (as previously noted) from a brute of a par 4 to a “sporty” (Kris’s description) par 5.  The green is the defense of the hole; elite players routinely have short iron approaches.

#8   This green was significantly recontoured, previously the  left half of the surface averaged 5-8% slope and was obviously unusable. 

#11   As Brent noted, the left side of this green was restored to bunker as designed by Ross.  I think this is the best green/bunker complex on the course…..   overly aggressive approaches to a back left pin will inevitably feed to the bunker.

#12   This green was recontoured to recapture lost pins, and to reincorporate a spine running into the green from a rear mound.

#14   Changed from a par 5 back to a long 4 as both Ross and Travis designed it.  Normally playing abut 470’ from the back tees, this hole can be stretched to 500’ from a tee not used in every day play but which is still maintained (it was used in a college tournament this year for the last round).

#15   Two poorly sited fairway bunkers added in the 2000 renovation were removed, and a large Travis-style “upside down bunker” was restored.  The green was reshaped to recapture pinnable area.

#17   A right fairway bunker was repositioned to bring it back into play on the drive, and the green was greatly reshaped (this one was butchered in the 2000 renovation).

#18   A new back tee was added to add 35’ or so to the hole, and the green restored to the original design.

The goal of presenting a challenge to the elite player while maintaining a playable course for the membership has certainly been achieved.  Hosting the 2013 Carolinas Senior Amateur, +4 won (Paul Simson, who has won the US, Canadian, and British Senior Ams shot 69, 69, 81!) on a layout playing around 6000 yards.  In the 2014 Carolinas Junior +3 won, and in a tournament hosted by the University of South Carolina earlier this year, -9 won the individual title by six shots (that kid was on fire… he actually had it to -14 through 49 holes, but dropped five shots on the last five holes).  A new competitive course record of 63 was set during that tournament, but nobody else has bested 67 in tournament play.  Camden can be had, but it takes somebody firing on all cylinders.  It remains a really fun day to day course at the same time.

Nice to see such an old track (Walter Travis, 1923; Donald Ross 1939) stay relevant to today’s game!