What five (5) golf courses would you restore and why ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you had absolute control, authority, money and permiting freedom, what five golf courses would you restore, and to what date.

A listing I would consider:

Hollywood  (photo date)
Lido          (completion date)
Yale          (Bahto date)
GCGC         1936
Doral         (completion date)

Hollywood, because it would represent an incredibly unique and demanding golf course

Lido, because if would represent a spectacular man made creation, hard by the sea, causing environmentalists to rethink the hard line.

Yale, because it might encourage more unique if not quirky designs in an area thin in strong golf courses

GCGC, because it was almost void of trees, shrubbery, underbrush, and appears to have been a ground intensive golf course, more strategic and more penal then the current version.

Doral, because too much of Wilson's limited amount of work has been lost.

[GeoffreyC]

OK Pat - I'll bite on that one.

Yale- Use all the construction photos, the 1934 aerial, what remains in the ground of the former bunkers that Roger Rulewich has not destroyed, the great memory of an old member who recalls the green contours and put it back! I mean put it back as exactly as possible and not that pseudo-crap interpretation/compromise that's under way now.

Timber Point - The old photos look so unique and there is little of Alison's original work intact.

Split Rock - A wonderful NY City public course with great greens, cross bunkering and a neat routing that uses the natural features of the rolling property and wetlands.  The NY City public golfers deserve it!

Riviera - What an amazing golf course.  Too little of George Thomas' work is intact.  Give Geoff Shakelford free reign.

Los Angeles North- see above and in addition those southern california yahoos (sorry Tommy, Lynn, David etc) deserve more intact courses to occasionally play when they take a change of pace from Rustic Canyon  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Geoff, I appreciate that! I'm sure the rest of the guys do too!


I'm going to keep this local here.

I just got back from playing very medicore golf on a flat wonderful little muni course I love to frequent here near  Downey called Los Amigos, where they have hired this superintendent who is really doing some amazing things with nothing of a suitable budget, and where even his full on Spanish-speaking crew seems to be transformed in maintaining the course. There is a lot of work to be done there, so I nominate that one first, because it has some really fun character to it, plus Matt Ward would hate it because it isn't challenging off of the tee.

The others:

2-Griffith Park Wilson and Harding-Put Geoff in charge of restoring those as far as possible, and what a lovely tribute to the man who paid for them to be finished out of his own pocket--some fellow named George C. Thomas.

3-Sharp Park-As far as it can be restored.

4-Eastmoreland-Talk abotu a course that is a prime full restoration candidate!

5-Oakmont CC in Glendale, Ca.--Max Behr--millions of trees now, lots of information out there that just needs to be researched!

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think you can count Lido because it's not on the same land anymore.

My five would be:

1.  Timber Point
2.  Bel Air
3.  Cobb's Creek, though I don't know how good it was
4.  Royal Cinque Ports, Deal, pre-Battle of Britain
5.  Commonwealth
6.  High Pointe!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
I had the pleasure of playing High Point with Joe Hancock last summer. We both enjoyed the course and thought the design was very good, but the course conditions (very wet, lush and slow) detracted from the experience. Is High Point in need of a restoration, or some re-grassing and a change in management for the course to play as designed?

I agree with Bel Air
There's a course in Des Moines called Wakonda that I feel would be a wonderful course if the playing corridors were opened up as they once were. I have no idea of the date but the evidence of old fairway bunkers now grassed over and buried in the forrest of trees shows that the course once had some width.

 

[Chris Kane]

Metropolitan: the photos of the old holes reveal a course that was infinitely superior to the current model.  The original back nine was taken over by the Victorian government in the 1960's for schooling.  Would require those schools and dozens of houses to be torn down: which is never going to happen!

Yarra Yarra: tear down all the trees which detract from the design.  On opening, it was said to resemble a windswept British Open course; wouldn't it be great to get that feeling back?

Augusta National: old photos and a look at a Masters film from the 60's reveal a course different in character to what we see today.  You get the feeling that it was a better course when Mackenzie's hand was more obvious.

[GeoffreyC]

Given Bill's addition of Shinnecock Hills which still today might be the best course on the planet, I'll add Quaker Ridge.  If you look at the really old aerials in the clubhouse the course looked absolutely wild and seriously better then today.

If Gil Hanse and Co. did to QR what they did to Fenway it would be AMAZING!

[GeoffreyC]

Yes Bill I do and you are in my dream foresome  

[GeoffreyC]

My goodness a lovefest on GCA instead of a bar room brawl  

[M.W._Burrows]

-Myopia Hunt Club
-Eastward Ho!
-Quaker Ridge
-Yale
-Crystal Downs
-Indianwood (Old)

I think all of these golf courses are really solid but with a little restoration would be unbelievable.  They really don't need a whole lot of work (with the exception of Yale).

I think they need:

-Fairway expansions (except for possibly Eastward Ho!)
-Tree removals
-Some bunker work to restore original characteristics or bring back abandoned bunkers
-Adding back some greens' features and/or size

[JNC Lyon]

San Francisco- "Little Tillie and Old Bunkering could put the Course in the Spotlight.

Oak Hill-Greens on 5, 6 and 15 do not fit with an otherwise classic set of Ross greens.

Pine Valley- Could Alternate fairway at No. 17 be restored?

A few others: Bel-Air, LACC, La Cumbre, Lakeside, and No. 18 at Cypress Point.

[BCrosby]

Geoffery and redanman - get a room.

My courses for restoration:

 - Yale - No other course would benefit so much from so little attention. Keep it cheap, just restore the second and third holes next to the clubhouse and Yale moves much higher in the rankings.

 - East Lake No. 2 - The course no longer exists (so disregard choice if you want), but older members still talk about it with great reverence. The better golfers preferred it. By all accounts it was the stronger of the two East Lake courses. There is little known about it today, but its reputation lives on, at least for a while.

 - East Lake No. 1 - $25 million dollars later and it's not as good as the course I played in the 80's and that course wasn't as good as the Ross original, and that course wasn't as good as the other Ross course at East Lake (see above). Superb conditioning notwithstanding.

 - Pinehurst No. 4 - A great, great piece of property wasted. There is a wonderful Ross course in there somewhere.

 - Athens CC - A Ross course that, if restored a la Aronimink or Skokie, would be very special. As with Yale, it would take very little money to do the trick.

 - ANGC - We have forgotten how radical/weird/even satirical MacKenzies' original design was. It was gca on acid. It mocked older architectural icons. Really wild stuff that I had not appreciated until the recent discovery of fairway level photos of the original green complexes. See the gound level photo of MacK's original no. 4 (Eden). Unbelievable.

Bob

[GeoffreyC]

Bob

Bill and I are just friends  

Is there any way you could share those Augusta photos with us? That was a great call.

PS- you should see the newest work up at Yale.  Its embarassing how bad it is.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'll add Nassau to the list.

[Happy Gilmore]

My Dream Foursome:

Matt Ward
Pat Mucci
MDugger


I'd sell the rights and kick back and grab some popcorn!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Happy Gilmore,

That might not be all that you grab  

Why did Philip Roth say that he was uncomfortable shaking hands with you ?

[larry_munger]

Happy, think there are a few more than would want or not want in on that game/match.

[Steve Sayers]

Tom Doak:

FYI

"Bid to spiff up Cobbs Creek
The Olde Course could be in for a face-lift, but there are still a few obstacles."

See link for details:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/6656971.htm

[Matthew Mollica]

Commonwealth
Metropolitan
Yarra Yarra
Riviera
Pasatiempo

[JNC Lyon]

Some holes at ANGC that should be restored:

2nd Hole had bunkering that gave the hole strategy (!).
6th Hole, with its original redan green.
7th Hole, with original Valley of Sin green.
9th Hole, with boomerang green more exciting than today's cookie cutter shaped green.
Original 10th green site.
12th Hole. If the pros have difficulty with this hole now, imagine what they would do on Mackenzie's Green!
The original fairway bunker on 14.

[Mike_Cirba]

Nice to see that on a really cool piece of land, the Greg Norman design group thinks a "restoration" of Cobbs Creek requires some "target bunkers".  

Ewww...  

[ian]

My Stanley Thompson Five:

1. Highland Golf Links, if you have seen all the old photos, you would realize how much better it could be.

2. Cataraqui is all there waiting to be reclaimed. One of the best and easiest Thompson courses to recapture

3. St George's; This is one of the four changed greens, all are well photographed and two are completely still intact.


4. Banff Springs back to the pre-Robinson, 18 holes, original routing, restoration of bunkers using the old photos.

5. The origional York Downs, designed by Alison, built by Thompson. The course still sits in the middle of an urban park with many mounds and greens complex's still there for all to see.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'll stay on the Canadian theme...

1. Shaughnessy, Vancouver (Macan)
*One of Macan's last golf course designs, and perhaps his very best. However, besides his routing, almost everything 'Macan' has been lost. The course occupies a gently rolling property along the bank of the Fraser River. The original design featured boldly contoured greens and a number of bunkers in the direct line to the hole. Shaughnessy will host the 2005 Canadian Open, but don't expect a 'restoration' of Macan's original design.

2. Banff, Alberta (Thompson)
*I agree with Ian. Banff is crying to be restored; particularly the original hole sequence, which was changed a decade or so ago, to the detriment of the 'Banff experience'.

3. Toronto Golf Club and Hamilton (tie) (Colt)
*Two of supposedly only a handful of North American golf courses Harry Colt was directly involved with laying out. And, two wonderful candidates for some sensitive restorative-based work.

4. Lakeview, Toronto (H. Strong)
*Located across the road from Toronto GC, Lakeview is a city-owned course these days. As a private club back in the 1930s, however, Lakeview hosted a few Canadian Opens, and it was once considered one of Canada's very best golf courses. Much has changed. There's not much 'Strong' left there today.  

5. Highlands Links (Thompson)
*I have to agree with Ian, again. Look at the old photos of Highlands Links and it's clear the 'restoration' work on the course back in the mid 1990s was an opportunity lost. Canada's best golf courses could indeed be so much better!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Montclair and Metropolis would be two courses worthy of restoration by removing and/or relocating the tennis courts that caused them to alter their respective golf courses in the first place.

[Doug Wright]

I found this 2003 thread while trolling around looking for Vernon Macan stuff. What say you all?

I'd pick Wellshire GC in Denver. Designed by Donald Ross in 2006, it's buried under many years of municipal neglect but the bones are there and with some $$ it easily could be restored a la Wilmington (NC) Municipal. Alas, unlikely to happen unless I win Powerball.