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John Kavanaugh

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Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« on: December 18, 2014, 09:15:25 PM »
I can see an argument for each. For me, I can't get past Jack Grout introducing me to the game and Nicklaus being my guy as I cheered his 46 year old ass winning the Masters in 86. I can't believe that Nicklaus is just 20 years minus 11 days older than me. He always felt an eternity away. I love his courses, I love his legacy, I love his family. I hate Florida State despite his Nephew, and that is with a heavy heart. Nicklaus is the man.

Oops, Dick Grout introduced me to the game. Jack Grout's brother to be exact. I suppose Dick wasn't as good a teacher as Jack, or maybe it had something to do with the student.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 09:22:19 PM by John Kavanaugh »
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 09:46:55 PM »
Interesting question, and lots of ways to approach and play around with it. But I don't think the answer is hard to find, i.e. reverse engineer it, looking at the game as it is now and working backwards ask yourself whether modern-day golf 'looks' more like Jack or more like Ben.

Peter
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 09:52:40 PM »
I thought Dick Grout was a shortstop. 
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Mike_Young

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 09:55:43 PM »
No contest.....Nicklaus wins....but that is not to belittle Crenshaw.   Also O'leary is his grandson,( Bill O'leary and his daughter Nan)   not his nephew at FSU.  JMO
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Terry Lavin

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 09:58:05 PM »
Another scab-picker topic. I got Jack's back.
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Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2014, 10:02:17 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on December 18, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
No contest.....Nicklaus wins....but that is not to belittle Crenshaw.   Also O'leary is his grandson,( Bill O'leary and his daughter Nan)   not his nephew at FSU.  JMO

Thanks. The kid has been killing me all year. I can't help but love him in spite of his team.
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Chris Johnston

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2014, 10:08:47 PM »
Jack.
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BCowan

Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2014, 10:14:00 PM »
Gentle Ben.  ''The Art of Putting'', they need to make that on DVD. 
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BHoover

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2014, 10:39:33 PM »
Nicklaus, and it's not close. His playing career, his instructional books and videos, and his architecture have had a bigger impact than Crenshaw. Granted, we as a group may prefer Crenshaw's courses, but that doesn't outweigh the contributions that Nicklaus has made to the game.

For the record, and I don’t care what others may say, I like most of the Nicklaus courses that I've played.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 10:50:52 PM by Brian Hoover »
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Tim Bert

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2014, 10:42:53 PM »
Which has done more for golf in the Sand Hills of Nebraska?
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BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2014, 10:47:41 PM »
Quote from: Tim Bert on December 18, 2014, 10:42:53 PM
Which has done more for golf in the Sand Hills of Nebraska?

Now that is a better question, and I think the answer would likely be Crenshaw.
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hhuffines

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 10:53:15 PM »
Bill, the shortstop was Dick Groat.  Still does color for Pitt basketball.
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2014, 11:20:59 AM »
I don't think this site would exist if Crenshaw hadn't come along. He invented the thoughtful golfer.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2014, 12:46:46 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on December 19, 2014, 11:20:59 AM
I don't think this site would exist if Crenshaw hadn't come along. He invented the thoughtful golfer.

He didn't invent the thoughtful golfer, but he perpetuated what might otherwise have been a dying breed.

Jack has had more INFLUENCE on the game, without question, but Ben might have done more to preserve it.  For starters, two people that wouldn't have had as much to do without Ben's support are me, and Bill Coore.  And then everybody who worked for either of us, because we might not have had much work otherwise.
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Mike Bowen

Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2014, 05:05:36 PM »
Nicklaus was influential as a golfer but also with his 1000 or so designs in the golf course boom. His designs helped created the modern "test" or championship course that was or is so desired.  I do think that Crenshaw's influence is rising and I can't help but wonder if Pinehurst No.2 gets restored if not for Ben and his influences.  I am bullish on Ben but I think Jack is holding steady.
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Keith Cutten

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2014, 07:05:35 PM »
Golf = Mr. Nicklaus ...  Golf Architecture = Mr. Crenshaw
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"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

Bill_McBride

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2014, 07:34:10 PM »
Quote from: hhuffines on December 18, 2014, 10:53:15 PM
Bill, the shortstop was Dick Groat.  Still does color for Pitt basketball.

Just remembered that.  1960 Pirates!
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astavrides

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw? New
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2014, 07:43:59 PM »
.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 12:12:57 PM by astavrides »
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2014, 08:18:18 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 19, 2014, 12:46:46 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on December 19, 2014, 11:20:59 AM
I don't think this site would exist if Crenshaw hadn't come along. He invented the thoughtful golfer.

He didn't invent the thoughtful golfer, but he perpetuated what might otherwise have been a dying breed.


What other multiple major champion from our generation or even before carried the thoughtful torch in the manner Ben? It has been a successful form of branding.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2014, 09:29:20 PM »
Quote from: Keith Cutten on December 19, 2014, 07:05:35 PM
Golf = Mr. Nicklaus ...  Golf Architecture = Mr. Crenshaw

Time will tell, I suppose. But I have a feeling that, if we were all to live for another 50 years, many of us would be very surprised by the future judgements in this regard.

Peter
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2014, 09:37:51 PM »
Quote from: PPallotta on December 19, 2014, 09:29:20 PM
Quote from: Keith Cutten on December 19, 2014, 07:05:35 PM
Golf = Mr. Nicklaus ...  Golf Architecture = Mr. Crenshaw

Time will tell, I suppose. But I have a feeling that, if we were all to live for another 50 years, many of us would be very surprised by the future judgements in this regard.

Peter

That is dependent on where the bombs fall. I'm reminded of the great thread "Golf after Nuclear Winter". Pete Dye has the finest portfolio in non strategic locations.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2014, 10:26:55 PM »
Ha - there's nothing that anyone can say that can top that! 

But just to say: my thinking is that a few passing years/decades will have the effect of bringing to the fore what I think of as an already-present reality: that Jack and Ben and Tom and Jeff B and Mike Y and Gil H and the vast majority of working architects today and designing within the same fairly narrow bandwidth, and that they all have much more in common -- design wise -- than not. Especially because of the various teams/associates all these lead architects employ, the dominate ethos/approach they share is that of the Logician-Romantic Hybrid, with some a little further left on that spectrum and some a little further right. Time (and future architects and committees) will also soften some features and highlight others, and lengthen and reshape greens, all of which will compound the effect as the courses (with a few towering exceptions) move even closer to some (future-time) golden mean.

Peter
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Mike_Young

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Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2014, 10:37:17 PM »
Peter,

I think you are right about how things will evolve within the next 50 years.  I think there are so many on here and in golf that know what they like but don't know why they like it.  My personal opinion of of what we all like is "whole"golf where the course is one integral piece of land.  So many equate JN and others to the large housing developments etc and IMHO housing is what will go down as being the "bad" architecture much more so than the design style of any particular architect.  Golf courses built on good land and walkable will be admired in 50 years no matter the archie and those with homes down both sides of a corridor will not exist no matter the archie...JMO
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who in your opinion has done more to advance the game, Nicklaus or Crenshaw?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2014, 10:39:51 PM »
Peter,

I think you are right about how things will evolve within the next 50 years.  I think there are so many on here and in golf that know what they like but don't know why they like it.  My personal opinion of of what we all like is "whole"golf where the course is one integral piece of land.  So many equate JN and others to the large housing developments etc and IMHO housing is what will go down as being the "bad" architecture much more so than the design style of any particular architect.  Golf courses built on good land and walkable will be admired in 50 years no matter the archie and those with homes down both sides of a corridor will not exist no matter the archie...JMO
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"
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