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Michael Marzec

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Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2014, 10:11:55 AM »
Many thanks to Jason Thurman and Chris Sturges for doing the legwork that got us on Piqua. And special thanks to Ben for looping me in so I did not miss out. I liked the course quite a bit, with the holes nearest the clubhouse and the road (and frequently used railroad tracks) offering the best design qualities.

I offer one "action" photo: Evan Fleisher in the menacing cross bunker on No. 12.



It was an enjoyable round with good company. A balmy 38ish and mostly sunny with little breeze. And I got the perfect end to my year in golf: Sturges was kind enough to risk letting me play the 18th with his hickories. I managed a par, which is not bad for a rookie. Is the Hickory Open in my future...? 
"Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite. And furthermore, always carry a small snake." - W.C. Fields

Criss Titschinger

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Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2014, 10:43:03 AM »
Weather was actually pretty decent for a Winter Solstice in mid-Ohio. Sun was out; wind wasn't blowing too hard. All-in-all, a pretty good day to play golf.

I took a lot pictures, but haven't transferred them off my camera. Not expecting great lighting, so I don't know how well they'll turn out.

I'm glad to see there are others like me crazy enough to seek out a (potentially) soon-to-be NLE with Ross holes. Certainly the best holes of the course.

Here's one off my phone of the 19th-hole (really the 9th hole, but equally positioned as a great 19th) hickory hits from the front tee, off into the sunset.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2014, 11:08:25 AM »
Truthfully, the weather could have been much worse. The original forecast when we started planning back around Tuesday called for a high of 33 degrees. While we ended up at a balmy high of 40, it should be noted that only one GCA member thought we were a little nuts for driving that far to play in that weather, and everyone else either joined or lamented that they couldn't. Meanwhile, everyone from my "normal life" to whom I disclosed "Hey, I'm driving to Piqua on Sunday to play golf in 35 degree weather at a club that opened in 1896 and has 9 Ross holes!" thought I was insane.

They weren't wrong. I just like to think their reasoning was.

In the end, my 90 minutes was the shortest drive of anyone who came (and I didn't do any of the driving either). We had guys come from as far as Louisville, Cleveland, and Michigan, driving ~3 hours or more.

On to the course:

Piqua CC occupies a charming, gently rolling property. I know very little about the property's history, but it wasn't surprising to hear that the front nine was the Ross nine, as it displays a lot of the characteristics of Ross that form the "signature" of his work. Namely, his hand is revealed through the use of the one substantial slope that descends from the west side of the property down to the stream on the east side of the property. Not surprisingly, the front nine made constant use of the slope and stream to create interesting golf holes.

However, as we ventured out into the north end of the course on 5 and 6, the holes didn't seem to fit. Several of us noted that those two holes felt less "Rossy." You could have told me that 5 was a Ross hole and I would have believed you, as it was a good stout par 5 that used bunkering to create a zig-zagging route to the green despite a straight corridor, and had some excellent green surrounds. The 6th, though, with its retention pond in the middle of the fairway and blind from the tee, just didn't feel right. For that matter, 7 had a very large green compared to the rest of the front nine and the water hazard near the green was also surprising.

Thankfully, HistoricAerials.com filled in some of the gaps. Here's an aerial from 1959, when Piqua still had only nine holes:



The Ross corridors then, it can be assumed, are holes 1-4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 17, and 18. That, of course, adds up to 10 holes and it should be noted that 4 looks a little sparse in the aerial. It's certainly present, but the green is tiny, the bunkering is out of character with the other 9 holes, and the more modern aerial view seems to show a green that has been moved slightly. A more modern view is here:



Perhaps the most noteworthy thing for me is that the 8th has been reversed. In the aerial, the hole playing through that corridor clearly played uphill to a large and well-bunkered green. This isn't surprising, as the water carry on the second shot at 8 felt a little out-of-character compared to other Ross holes I've played. However, I also think it's easily the best par 5 on the course in its current incarnation with its plunging downhill tee shot and risky second. One of my complaints with Ross is that he rarely presents spectacular shots and instead favors more "solid but playable" holes. In the case of the 8th, I really like the current downhill version and my first thought when looking at the uphill version is that it looks like a stout test but perhaps a bit "sloggish." While I chunked my second when I had a chance to reach in two, I drank enough trying to stay warm during the round that I was easily able to imagine the thrill that it must be to hit the green in two. I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this. There's no doubt to me, though, that while I may prefer today's downhill route, I certainly prefer the bunkering and shaping present in the original. The greenside bunkers look pretty cavernous from the aerial, and the the centerline and wing bunkering playing up the wide corridor looks like a blast.

For me, the standout holes all came from the ones pictured in the aerials above. The current 2, 3, 8, 9, and 18 were probably my favorites. Kidwell's holes weren't poorly designed at all, aside from the headscratcher at 6. They simply occupied far less interesting property. I'd be very interested in learning more about the overall history of the property - when each section was purchased, how the decisions to purchase were made, etc.

One other thought I have when looking at the old aerials: Piqua has some delightfully sporting qualities and is a fun 18 holes with 7 or 8 really good ones. There's real reason to consider the loss of the course a tragic one in the classic sense. Yet, in looking at the 1959 aerial, there's another tragedy. The loss of the bold Ross bunkering and width has removed a lot of scale from Piqua and left several of its holes a bit neutered in their current incarnation. The current 17th and 3rd are the most notable examples, with vastly weaker bunkering by comparison to their 1959 incarnations. The bones of a VERY good 9 hole course are all over Piqua, and it will be a real shame if golf on the property is lost forever. However, as is the case at thousands of other courses across the US, it's equally sad to think of what the course once was compared to what it has become through years of well-intentioned but ultimately detrimental tinkering and benign neglect.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2014, 12:23:59 PM »
Jason,

great post.  I gotta put together a few groups in June to play 36 @ Tiffin Mohawk (back 9 Ross play it twice forget front) and Findlay CC.  Mohawk  back 9 has very very good Ross holes with very nice land movement.  A must play for a Ross fan. 

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2014, 02:25:00 PM »
Best part of number 6 was that Brian could have hit his ball off the ice on the pond.

Certainly could tell which holes were Ross holes.  They were easily the most memorable. 

I bet a lot of bets have been settled coming off 18 and playing number 9....probably from that tiny tee box where we hit the hickory club. 

Definitely had a great time for my first GCA event....official or unofficial.  Great meeting you guys. 

Mark Manuel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2014, 04:26:49 PM »
A group of 11 members went off at 9, a sixsome and a fivesome, looked over as we walked to the 10th tee and wondered who was getting their clubs out of their cars.  Glad you guys had the chance to play PCC.  There is a small group of us that have not missed a month in years. 

There is a small group of us who have not missed a month playing golf there in years.  That includes one Sunday, Feb 28, in roughly a foot of snow.  The golfing members are a little bit hardcore.

As an aside there are not 9 original Ross holes.  When I75 was built it eliminated two of the original nine holes and thus a redesign.  Don't ask me for the architect.  But you can certainly get a sense of Ross on certain holes.

Still hoping the place stays open!
The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2014, 06:44:44 PM »
The 17th green is the most deceptive on the course. It has to be an original Ross green complex.

Michael Marzec

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2014, 07:16:45 PM »
Best part of number 6 was that Brian could have hit his ball off the ice on the pond.

I don't suppose Brian was playing a Callaway with three green dots...



After Evan retrieved, it served me well through about 10 holes before being donated to the course.

With apologies for double-posting this image. You will also find it belatedly submitted to the Photo of the Year thread.
"Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite. And furthermore, always carry a small snake." - W.C. Fields

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2014, 09:18:19 PM »
Best part of number 6 was that Brian could have hit his ball off the ice on the pond.

I don't suppose Brian was playing a Callaway with three green dots...

After Evan retrieved, it served me well through about 10 holes before being donated to the course.

With apologies for double-posting this image. You will also find it belatedly submitted to the Photo of the Year thread.

That is absolutely hilarious. I was playing that Callaway, and have marked my ball that way for years. Glad it served you better than me.

It was a fun time with a good group of dedicated golfers.  Thanks to Jason for organizing and to Adam and Chris for putting up with me for over 3 hours!  
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 09:20:56 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2014, 09:25:27 AM »
Mark, that's interesting about I-75. I wonder if that could help explain part of why 4 looks so odd in the aerial from 1959. It seems like it feasibly could have been a longer hole that had to be cut off and had the green rebuilt at an uncharacteristically tiny size before being renovated into its current form. I-75 in that area should have been built sometime around 1957, so the aerial would reflect a fairly recently altered course and it looks like you can still see rubble from the highway construction in certain portions of the 1959 aerial.

9 seems like an obvious candidate to have been added after the fact with the way it sits on that tiny finger of land, but I've seen similar holes on Ross courses previously that make me at least hope that it's original. It's very reminiscent of the 9th at Chattanooga G&CC, which is another heavily altered Ross course.

I can't figure out the routing of the 9 or 10-hole course pictured in the 1959 aerial. (Referring to holes by their current position in the 18 hole routing) the 3rd and the reversed-8th hole both lead to the same general area of the property. 17 would let you move from 8 to one of the eastbound holes that move back toward the clubhouse, but I can't figure out where you would go from 3. Assuming 4 was in play you could obviously play that hole, but then where do you go? 4's green is in its own corner and pretty isolated from any other tee.

Another thing to note is that 2 and 18 both tee off from the same general area at the top of the west ridge of the property, from where they tumble down to the stream. However, in the 1959 aerial, there are three greens that take you to those two tees - 1, 11, and 17. I think there's a lot more to learn about how the Interstate affected Piqua, as it's obvious they had a bastardized routing in 1959 that was likely the direct result of the Interstate construction. The renovation to the course that presumably led to Kidwell's work wasn't really optional - they didn't necessarily need to build 9 more holes, but the 9 or 10 holes that were present in 1959 clearly had an unsustainable routing unless I'm just missing something.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2015, 08:09:54 AM »
Any new information on Piqua?

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2015, 10:19:15 AM »
I went to the website yesterday. The front page thanks everyone for 118 years of patronage. It appears they have ceased operations.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2015, 11:01:05 AM »
The bump of this thread reminded me that I have a few more photos from our impromptu GCA gathering. Names withheld to protect the innocent.

The second group putting out on 18. It’s really a great setting for a green.


Four proud Buckeyes, in one sense or another. The putt was made.


“Walk tall and carry a big (hickory) stick” – Buford Pusser, the original “Walking Tall”


Andrew Jackson’s nickname was Old Hickory. I don’t know much else about him, but I’m sure this guy does.


Obligatory black-and-white final photo of another likely Ross NLE.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2015, 11:20:36 AM »
Andrew Jackson’s nickname was Old Hickory. I don’t know much else about him, but I’m sure this guy does.

I'm halfway through American Lion right now. Highly recommended. Jackson was very interesting, the first president who wasn't from the political elite (potentially excepting Washington). Swept in by a wave a public popularity stemming from his leadership in the Battle of New Orleans. Did a lot to adapt the role of the president into something much more closely resembling what we have today, for better or for worse. Really scared the dickens out of the establishment. Plus there is some great insight into Clay-Webster-Calhoun.

I have a very well-read friend who recently read a biography of every US President. I'm not that ambitious but am prioritizing a few presidents who I understand to be historically significant but who I don't know much about. Jackson was tops on the list. Polk and Truman will also be in the lineup.

And to keep this on topic, thanks for the added pics. As an Ohio native myself, sad to see this one closing (if that's what does indeed happen). Looks like a lot of quality holes on the premises.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 11:22:09 AM by JLahrman »

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2015, 04:26:43 PM »
Parting Shot.

Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2015, 11:57:24 PM »
I was told by someone close to the situation there is a group of members in negotiations with the bank. They are about 200K apart. Hopefully this will get resolved by the time the weather breaks.

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2015, 08:54:22 AM »
According to the Miami Valley Golf Association, there might be some good news coming out of Piqua.

http://www.miamivalleygolf.org/Home-MVGolf/Updates-From-Around-The-Area--2627C5015.html?LayoutID=210#.VQbSPhB4o-M

"PCC Has gone through reorganization and will reopen from all indications later this Spring.  It will continue to be member owned, all be it a different tax id and different set of member investors."

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2015, 11:00:30 AM »
Interesting development...thanks for cluing us in!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2015, 11:31:24 PM »
According to the website PCC will reopen 5/1/15

Yea!


Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2015, 08:35:13 AM »
Insane idea:

Tear down the club house (eliminate a lot of overhead and residual expenses), sell off 9 holes of property.  Alter the best 9 holes to minimze maintenace (eliminate some bunkers). Start to really test out the minimzation of water, single mowing heights, etc.  Operate as a hybrid public-semi-private with a simple modest shed as a clubhouse. 

A new business plan cannot change the demographics and per capita income challenge.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Brent Hutto

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2015, 08:51:44 AM »
Carl,

Who would be the constituency supporting that idea, though?

Either a fair proportion of members from the old club would have to be interested in belonging to a no-clubhouse, scruffy 9-holer or else there would have to be some money-making opportunity to turn a zillion rounds a year at 10 bucks per nine for very basic golf.

Or is there some source of demand that I'm not thinking of here?

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2015, 09:28:32 AM »
Brent, of course I  do not know the answer to your questions.

The constituency would be the former members and other locals who want to continue to play within their economic realities.  For me, the question would be how to make it more than "scruffy".

I have signed up for the Dixie Cup this year and really look forward to teeing it up at Sweeten's Cove, a 9 holer near Chattanooga.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2015, 09:45:46 AM »
Carl, it's an interesting thought. One thing that sticks out to me, though, is that the "bargain basement" golf market in Piqua is already pretty well cornered. Echo Hills, Piqua's municipal course, has green fees of $14 for nine holes and $19 for 18. You can easily play 18 with a cart for under $25, and unlimited annual memberships start at $800 for single adults, with various discounted options available for those willing to play at "off" times or who meet certain age requirements.

Basically, I can't see a way that a nine-hole version of Piqua CC with a shed for a clubhouse is going to be able to compete with the 18 hole municipal course across town that has a full clubhouse and driving range and will probably still be able to offer lower prices. There just isn't any value there unless you drop rates to a price that's going to be unprofitable. I think Piqua CC's best shot to survive is through better management and ownership willing to outlay capital when necessary and also willing to rein it in when prudent. There's still a fair chance that the location and demographics limit the club's potential success, but this is probably their best option.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

C. Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2015, 12:38:41 PM »
Thanks for posting, I hope they can make a go of it.  I thought I had heard they had recently redone/ built the current club house?  It makes very little sense to then tear it down.  The day we played, the clubhouse seemed to be doing a lot of business.  Maybe that was just because they were closing soon.
If you are in the area I would play there while it is still 18 holes.  If they do have to sell property I hope it is the flat and uninspired part of the course away from the current clubhouse.
chris