News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2014, 02:23:08 PM »
Mark,

it is very difficult if not impossible to understand your view point as you fail to define what you mean by 'strategic choice'. As I have explained and you by your reply seem to have understood I do not believe that a hole or course can be strategic but rather it is dependent on the abilities of the player and the conditions being played in. A hole can offer certain challenges in my opinion but whether there are interesting strategic questions depends on the player and his/her abilities not the hole.

You continue to say a hole can be strategic but despite several requests to explain what you mean by this (I personally am at a loss to comprehend you) you fail to define your idea. I do wonder if you yourself really understand your own view point and if when you try to define it, it will have real substance to it.

Jon


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2014, 05:35:48 PM »
Rich,

You have me stumped.  I cannot think of a way to apply the word strategic to any law I am familiar with.  That said, I have next to no knowledge of tax law.

Jon,

As it used to be, before the idiots who manage The Northumberland dumbed it down, the 12th there offered an interesting choice off the tee.  At 420 yards it's two decent knocks for most.  The green was surrounded at the front and sides by 7 bunkers effectively arranged in a U shape, with the axis of the U pointing at a fairway bunker on the RHS.  Coming in from near that bunker, over the tip of the U, provided ground between the front bunker and the green front, allowing a chance to land a mid iron short of the green surface and let it roll on.  Hitting the green was far harder from the LHS.  From the tee, you had a choice.  Hit it as close as possible to that fairway bunker (or over it with a following wind and a firm strike) and leave a relatively straightforward second, unless you caught the bunker, which was a shot dropped, effectively, or drive left, away from the bunker and leave a much harder second shot.  That is an example of what I call a strategic choice.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2014, 02:00:58 AM »

Vis a vis Ran et. al. and their (mis)use for the word "strategic," I think that it all started with the impenetrable prose of Maxie Behr, who was trying to think of a word more interesting than the word "interesting" when describing golf courses and or golf holes he liked.

Rich


...and I thought it was just me who doesn't get the Behr. Thank you Rich.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2014, 04:09:40 AM »
Mark,

thanks for the answer. The example you gave is the same faced at CS on the 2,3,5,7,9,13,14,15,16&18 IMO.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2014, 05:43:55 AM »

Vis a vis Ran et. al. and their (mis)use for the word "strategic," I think that it all started with the impenetrable prose of Maxie Behr, who was trying to think of a word more interesting than the word "interesting" when describing golf courses and or golf holes he liked.

Rich


...and I thought it was just me who doesn't get the Behr. Thank you Rich.

+2 - bloody awful writer.  The California folks have a lot to answer for.  Although, the concept of strategic design is simple enough to understand.  Most people get tangled up with the concept of penal.  

The likely worst thing the ODGs did was to ascribe a value to design concepts; strategic good - penal bad.  Its all good, balancing the ideas is the tricky part.  I assume there are many folks who think CS has gone overboard into strategic mode...to the point of watering down the concept by reducing risk too much?  I would like a few good examples of this with pix.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 05:48:47 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2014, 07:37:51 AM »
I assume there are many folks who think CS has gone overboard into strategic mode...to the point of watering down the concept by reducing risk too much?  I would like a few good examples of this with pix.

Me too.  From the pictures I've seen the greens and surrounds look quite challenging, even penal with some rub of the green. But it could be my kind of course: wide-to-narrow, with wind and interest. It's in my top 3 to see in Scotland.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2014, 05:43:47 PM »
Rich,

Suppose you were czar for a year at Castle Stuart. Is there any specific work that you would undertake to take it from a 2**  to a 3*** grade on the infamous RG scale? Generally, I leave a course thinking of two or three (or twelve!) things that I think they should do but here ... not so much! I am curious what you might suggest.

Niall,

Are you saying it doesn’t matter what side of the fairway you drive the ball on holes 3, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 18? I have read your comment re: 14 but I don’t understand how you think the right isn’t a nasty, horrid angle. Aerial or not, I can't seem to hit that green from ~140 yards out from the right edge/right rough. That hole gives me fits as I always blunder right off the tee.

Best,

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2014, 09:20:39 AM »
Ran

It's been 3 1/2 years since I last played Castle Stuart, so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt.  That being said, when I last played it was with a home club outing or 16 players, and over two rounds nobody managed to play to their handicap in either round, including our pro, our legendary 30 times club champion, and several other very useful/lowish handicap players.  Those who think the course is easy must be playing hand mashies out of bunkers and gimmies within 3-5 feet on the greens (insert WTF emoticon).

As for "improvements," I'd keep the routing as it is.  It is a genius routing with a very challenging peice of land.  I cant think of a bad (or even medicore) green at CS.  Nothing nearly as bland as the 16th at Dornoch and the 9th and the Old Course, or most of the outward holes at North Berwick, for example.  The seeming width of the course ia the one issue that could use some TLC.  There are perhaps too few designer niggles (e.g. centreline bunkers @ 200-250, seemingly gnarly stuff at the edges, etc. which play on the mind when standing on the tee).  Maybe there are a few places on some fairways where divots tend to congregate and could be replaced by bunkers, as per the Really ODG's philosophy about course design/redesign.

Otherwise, all is good.

Slainte

Rich

Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2014, 03:50:46 PM »
I have never been to CS - is it really as spectacularly beautiful as it appears?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2014, 06:19:39 PM »
"I have never been to CS - is it really as spectacularly beautiful as it appears?"

Jerry K. -

Yes, it is. It is almost worth the pricey green fee just to go sit in the locker room and admire the views up & down the Moray Firth. ;)

Flyover video of the course (with the caveat that the views are far more impressive from course level than from above the course looking down upon it):

http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/aerial-flyover

DT
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:36:47 PM by David_Tepper »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2014, 07:08:13 AM »
Arresting photos Ran and I guess you might promote it to a "9" after your second visit and if not, why?  Tom's neg about a "fetish" for infinity greens is apparent but it's hard to not love the look.

The 10th looks a bit like the 6th at Kingsbarns in the tee shot at least.

Rich

15 years on and the "strategic" debate continues :D
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2014, 10:41:51 AM »

Rich

15 years on and the "strategic" debate continues :D

Paul

It's less of a "debate" than a "failure to communicate" as per the movie "Cool Hand Luke."

Rich

« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 10:48:26 AM by Rich Goodale »
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2014, 12:00:29 PM »
Arresting photos Ran and I guess you might promote it to a "9" after your second visit and if not, why?  Tom's neg about a "fetish" for infinity greens is apparent but it's hard to not love the look.

The 10th looks a bit like the 6th at Kingsbarns in the tee shot at least.

Rich

15 years on and the "strategic" debate continues :D

Paul,

I guess 'infinity' greens are basically what are/were called skyline greens. Though it is true that there are  potentially many of these in a round at CS I recon only 6, 9, 12,13 & 16 are such regardless what angle you approach them from. The only real criticism I have of CS is the lack of bailout areas on many of the greens and a lack of real movement within many of the greens. Having said that I think this is more personal preference on my part and not that it would improve the course for most people.

Jon

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2014, 01:14:34 PM »
Thanks Ran,

A wonderful write up and some great photos! I will confess that I love Castle Stuart and have been lucky enough to play it 4 or 5 times.

If I was being picky, I'd say:
- at times the attempt to make it feel the course has been there for a long time, seems a bit overdone. All the rustic sleepers and details would be fine occasionally but there are quite a few.
- the setting is undoubtedly an impressive one, but without the views to Fort George, Kessock Bridge etc it perhaps would be so great. the Black Isle on the far side of the water isn't the most stunning of Scottish scenery.
- a green fee there is bloody expensive!  ::)
But that's being picky...

I like the strategic nature of the design or whatever you choose to call it. The last time I played was in quite a wind and the higher handicaps I was with found the forgiveness off the tee a real help, but I had to really grind to get a decent score. I occasionally found the wrong part of the fairway and almost felt like I had no shot if I needed to hit the green in regulation (yes right off 14 was one such example), but my higher handicap playing partners were happy to be in that same spot!

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2014, 09:07:08 AM »

Niall,

Are you saying it doesn’t matter what side of the fairway you drive the ball on holes 3, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 18? I have read your comment re: 14 but I don’t understand how you think the right isn’t a nasty, horrid angle. Aerial or not, I can't seem to hit that green from ~140 yards out from the right edge/right rough. That hole gives me fits as I always blunder right off the tee.

Best,


Ran

My original post from about a week ago seems to have provoked an interesting discussion on what constitutes "strategic". Let me try and explain my take on it. To my mind strategic golf involves making a conscious decision on a course of action where you have determined that the course of action (or strategy) chosen meets best with your game-plan of the moment. That game-plan may change over the course of a round particularly if playing matchplay.

The important point however is that the strategy employed is discernibly different than the alternative strategy or strategies in terms of either the risk of the shot being undertaken, the type of shot undertaken or what is required or offered for the following shot. In other words, the choice of shot should make a difference one way or another.

Where I think CS falls short in this regard is that too much of the golf (not all) offers little of strategic value. Possibly the biggest culprit is the 5th. (Incredibly) Wide open fairway followed by a shot to a wide open fronted green. Does it make much difference to the average golfer whether they go down the left or right ? Possibly in terms of the difference in length in terms of the second shot but in reality so much of the right hand side is redundant. It's not really an option. Whether you are on the left or middle of the fairway you are still playing pretty much the same next shot. Now is there a material difference for the pro's ? Again, I doubt it but I'm not a pro.

Similarly the 1st and 2nd (although the confinements of the hole provide the challenge), the drive off the 6th (and arguably the second shot as well as I'm not sure I'd look to go over the bunker irrespective of how far down my drive went), 7th ? (not sure I'd be at all tempted to stray away from the middle of the broad fairway as hugging the cliff top gives little advantage for the next shot so again the strategic option seems redundant although appreciate others may disagree).

Now the 9th, that's an interesting one. Having played it a number of times (4 or 5 ?) I've come to the conclusion that I'm as well aiming for the bank running down the middle of the fairway on the basis that if I tweak it left I'll have basically the same shot to that if I push it right ie. a wedge to an elevated green, although obviously on the right you don't see the green surface. For me there risk reward ratio to go left doesn't tempt me.

The 10th has certainly become more challenging since they put in the fairway bunker. Likewise the 12th has been improved greatly with the new tees that provide a diagonal carry off the tee. Before it was another relatively broad passage to an open fronted green. Now at least it has an interesting/challenging drive. The 13th ? See my comments about the 5th. The 14th is perhaps worthy of a separate thread but let me just reiterate that for me (average golfer who on a good day hits a decent but not particularly long ball) you're basically facing a similar shot whether you are on the left or right off the tee. 

Basically when you get down to it, most of the holes have a relatively broad clear route from tee to green with little real danger impinging on that route other than perhaps on the lower holes that are more confined. Do you need the danger/hazards/penalties ? Possibly not but it's interesting that since the course was opened they have slowly but surely been acting out Rich's advice above by adding hazards (virtually all bunkers I think) many of which are centre line.

Perhaps when I next visit in a number of years I begin to feel the same about the course as you do.

Cheers

Niall


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2014, 11:50:06 AM »
Hi Niall,

good to see you back on the site.

I really do not know how you reach the conclusion you do or by using the same way of thinking I doubt any hole would fit the bill.




Where I think CS falls short in this regard is that too much of the golf (not all) offers little of strategic value. Possibly the biggest culprit is the 5th. (Incredibly) Wide open fairway followed by a shot to a wide open fronted green. Does it make much difference to the average golfer whether they go down the left or right ? Possibly in terms of the difference in length in terms of the second shot but in reality so much of the right hand side is redundant. It's not really an option. Whether you are on the left or middle of the fairway you are still playing pretty much the same next shot. Now is there a material difference for the pro's ? Again, I doubt it but I'm not a pro.


A ball on the right of the fairway gets more run from the down slope so leaving a shorter shot in but means you are playing into the green across a diagonal slope requiring either a faded shot or allowing for the bounce left but risking getting either caught up in the semi on the left (happened to me twice) or kicking further left than wanted and so missing the green all together. From the left, if you cannot fly the bunkers you are left with a longer iron in but one coming straight up the slope and so more predictable. So right is shorter but riskier left is more predictable but longer. I do not see how this can be seen as being the same.

Similarly the 1st and 2nd (although the confinements of the hole provide the challenge), the drive off the 6th (and arguably the second shot as well as I'm not sure I'd look to go over the bunker irrespective of how far down my drive went), 7th ? (not sure I'd be at all tempted to stray away from the middle of the broad fairway as hugging the cliff top gives little advantage for the next shot so again the strategic option seems redundant although appreciate others may disagree).

The second shot on the 2nd is massively different and easier from the left on top and have a view of the green and all that lies between coming in down the axis of the green and facing the semi blind shot where much of the land between is not seen and at angle to the axis of the green. I agree that 1 and 6 but whether the ball is on the right of the fairway on the 7th or middle to left has a massive effect on the second shot. From the left you see the flag and have flat a landing area to run the ball in on the right of the fairway it is a total blind shot to a landing area which is running away from you.

Now the 9th, that's an interesting one. Having played it a number of times (4 or 5 ?) I've come to the conclusion that I'm as well aiming for the bank running down the middle of the fairway on the basis that if I tweak it left I'll have basically the same shot to that if I push it right ie. a wedge to an elevated green, although obviously on the right you don't see the green surface. For me there risk reward ratio to go left doesn't tempt me.

Maybe it does not tempt you but if you could place the ball for the second shot where would you go, down the bottom? I usually blast it down the right leaving a short sandwedge up the hill but the one time I played to a front pin position the shot and I think in a tournament I would stay up the left side

The 10th has certainly become more challenging since they put in the fairway bunker. Likewise the 12th has been improved greatly with the new tees that provide a diagonal carry off the tee. Before it was another relatively broad passage to an open fronted green. Now at least it has an interesting/challenging drive. The 13th ? See my comments about the 5th. The 14th is perhaps worthy of a separate thread but let me just reiterate that for me (average golfer who on a good day hits a decent but not particularly long ball) you're basically facing a similar shot whether you are on the left or right off the tee. 

Again, the tee shot is a classic cape shot. Safe up the left leaves a long second where as up the right you end up in a gulley with an almost certain uneven stance in semi struggling to reach the green which you cannot see should you come up short. The decision is how much to chew off.

Basically when you get down to it, most of the holes have a relatively broad clear route from tee to green with little real danger impinging on that route other than perhaps on the lower holes that are more confined. Do you need the danger/hazards/penalties ? Possibly not but it's interesting that since the course was opened they have slowly but surely been acting out Rich's advice above by adding hazards (virtually all bunkers I think) many of which are centre line.

Are you sure about the centreline hazards? I believe they have added one in at 14 in the middle but the four at the 5th are left and right. Have they added anymore? Do you need the danger/hazards/penalties ? Is not a harder shot not enough after all you say yourself when the risk/reward is too high you do not take it on such as on the 9th.

Perhaps when I next visit in a number of years I begin to feel the same about the course as you do.

Cheers

Niall



I agree that there is not much in the way of danger off the tee but for me there is a big enough difference in the difficulty of the second shot depending where it is played from as to make me think where I want to place the drive.

Jon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2014, 03:18:14 PM »
Niall,  I can't specifically comment with respect to Castle Stuart because I haven't played it, but I it seems to me that your understanding of strategic design doesn't leave much room for subtlety.

To my mind, not all strategic choices need be blatant and not all advantages, disadvantages need be easily discerned.

But I think perhaps we've had this conversation before.
_________________________________________________


Rich,  I see you are back to the semantics of strategy.

As for your question to Mark, I'd say that some laws are more receptive to a strategic approach than others.  At its broadest, consider the difference between a common law system and a civil law system.  The former is case by case, depending on the circumstances.  The latter means to address every conceivable eventuality regardless of changing circumstances.

Golf courses are likewise.  Some provide a variety of viable options to reach the same goal, depending on the circumstances and the skill of the golfer.   Others provide a more direct and defined path.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2014, 08:43:14 AM »
David,

Not quite sure how you decided I don't account for subtlety but I do think it fair comment to suggest that certain features/strategy exist that are in play for the pro but not the lesser player. To use an analogy I've used before, it's a bit like trying to pot a ball the whole length of a pool table. At that distance I would not only be looking to pot the ball but also playing for position on the next shot. If instead I was trying to pot a ball the length of a full size snooker table then realistically all I'm trying to do is hit the ball and if it goes in that's lucky, and if I also get position well that's a complete fluke. Frankly I'm no Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Now apply that to the 5th at CS, Jon suggests that playing right off the tee will result in extra run being gained, however there is a disadvantage in playing the next shot from the right (according to Jon) as you now have to come slightly across the slope at the front of the green which will deflect the shot to some degree. Can't honestly say I've ever noticed that. Now is that because Jon is a far better player than me (which he is) and this feature (the fronting slope) is more in play for him than for me, or is it because I don't do subtlety ? I suspect it might be the former.

Let me also suggest that the vast majority of players playing CS are hackers to average at best (of which I'm one) rather than the pro golfer (of which Jon is one). If I'm a typical example of the vast majority of golfers, does this mean the strategy at CS that is supposedly evident is lost on them ? Or does it mean that it's been vastly overstated by some  ;D

BTW, our discussion before centered on the width of the holes and my contention that width didn't necessarily provide strategy. I think that still holds true which really was the essence of my post in response to Ran.

Niall 

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North to the Links of ... Castle Stuart!
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2014, 09:38:02 AM »
Niall,  I can't specifically comment with respect to Castle Stuart because I haven't played it, but I it seems to me that your understanding of strategic design doesn't leave much room for subtlety.

To my mind, not all strategic choices need be blatant and not all advantages, disadvantages need be easily discerned.

But I think perhaps we've had this conversation before.
_________________________________________________


Rich,  I see you are back to the semantics of strategy.

As for your question to Mark, I'd say that some laws are more receptive to a strategic approach than others.  At its broadest, consider the difference between a common law system and a civil law system.  The former is case by case, depending on the circumstances.  The latter means to address every conceivable eventuality regardless of changing circumstances.

Golf courses are likewise.  Some provide a variety of viable options to reach the same goal, depending on the circumstances and the skill of the golfer.   Others provide a more direct and defined path.

Thanks, David.  Your reply dodging the point helped prove that my semantic arguments were unchallengeable.  Please feel free to use the word "strategic" in any way you wish, at your risk.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back