Gorse and heather are just another form of thick rough......

[Paul Gray]

........and receive an unwarranted free pass? Discuss.

[Bill_McBride]

Not sure I fully agree.  Not a free pass from me, I have never hit the ball into mature gorse and played it out.   It might as well be out of bounds or a pond.  Clubs like Royal Dornoch and resorts like Bandon Dunes spend large sums cutting or burning it back.  At least in deep rough or Heather you have a chance of finding your ball and playing on. 

[Adam Lawrence]

From a pure playability point of view this is clearly true. Heather is a brutal hazard for golfers with slow swing speeds. It's important from an ecological point of view that heath courses encourage heather, but you do have to regard it as a hazard, especially in carries

[Rob Marshall]

The heather I experienced in Ireland at most, not all but most was like having out of bounds on both sides of the fairway. At Royal Portrush you had no chance to find your ball.

[jeffwarne]

........and receive an unwarranted free pass. Discuss.

a free pass?
yes
unwarranted?
perhaps........definitely eye candy, but then I have nothing against eye candy , particularly if it's actually native (as opposed to the de facto waving "fescue in a can" we see so prevalant on modern courses)

Low lying heather can be an attractive useful feature, gorse used/managed sparingly can be an attractive feature in the landscape as well, but not consistently on both sides

[Rich Goodale]

Unless you are very lucky, you will be unable to hit a ball out of heather much more than 10-100 yeards.  Vis a vis landing in gorse, at least 90% or the time you will need to declare your ball unplayable, and in the other 10% you will be lucky to hit the ball any more that a few yards, and might even hit it back deeper into the gorse if you are unlucky, usually causing a very penal chain of events.

How anyone could call these results a "free pass" is beyond me!

[Carl Johnson]

Not gorse.  Gorse isn't native to the British Isles or North America.  Gorse = water hazard, but the rules don't allow one to play it like a water hazard.

[Nigel Islam]

What exactly is the reasoning behind the inclusion of high fescue and heather in courses? Does it save money and resources? I think it slows down play, but if the course is saving lots of money and water then I can understand.

[Paul Gray]

Unless you are very lucky, you will be unable to hit a ball out of heather much more than 10-100 yeards.  Vis a vis landing in gorse, at least 90% or the time you will need to declare your ball unplayable, and in the other 10% you will be lucky to hit the ball any more that a few yards, and might even hit it back deeper into the gorse if you are unlucky, usually causing a very penal chain of events.

How anyone could call these results a "free pass" is beyond me!

Rich,

I think you may have misunderstood me.

I'm not suggesting the results are a free pass. I am suggesting, or at least asking, if gorse itself isn't let off the hook when the reality is that it actually acts in much the same way as six inch rough. Your chances of finding a ball in heather are far better but even then the recovery options are based more on brawn than brain

 So, again, does the image of beautiful heather and/or gorse on a classical rendition of a course not provide it with an unwarranted free pardon?

[Thomas Dai]

Gorse isn't native to the British Isles

Can you please elaborate?

atb

[Tom_Doak]

Not gorse.  Gorse isn't native to the British Isles or North America.  Gorse = water hazard, but the rules don't allow one to play it like a water hazard.

Gorse isn't native to the UK?  Where'd it come from, outer space?

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not suggesting the results are a free pass. I am suggesting, or at least asking, if gorse itself isn't let off the hook when the reality is that it actually acts in much the same way as six inch rough. Your chances of finding a ball in heather are far better but even then the recovery options are based more on brawn than brain

 So, again, does the image of beautiful heather and/or gorse on a classical rendition of a course not provide it with an unwarranted free pardon?

Paul:

Yes, they get a free pass. 

But in certain cases the free pass is warranted.  Heather and gorse add a lot more native character to a course than water or long grass do, and in many places they tend to be randomly distributed instead of a solid block, so you don't always pay the penalty.

As long as the maintained grass is wide enough that you have room to play and room to steer clear of the gorse/heather, they're okay.  [Gorse less than heather, because there is no recovery from gorse.]  But if they line both sides of the hole fairly closely, they're a terrible burden.

[Paul Gray]

I'm not suggesting the results are a free pass. I am suggesting, or at least asking, if gorse itself isn't let off the hook when the reality is that it actually acts in much the same way as six inch rough. Your chances of finding a ball in heather are far better but even then the recovery options are based more on brawn than brain

 So, again, does the image of beautiful heather and/or gorse on a classical rendition of a course not provide it with an unwarranted free pardon?

Paul:

Yes, they get a free pass. 

But in certain cases the free pass is warranted.  Heather and gorse add a lot more native character to a course than water or long grass do, and in many places they tend to be randomly distributed instead of a solid block, so you don't always pay the penalty.

As long as the maintained grass is wide enough that you have room to play and room to steer clear of the gorse/heather, they're okay.  [Gorse less than heather, because there is no recovery from gorse.]  But if they line both sides of the hole fairly closely, they're a terrible burden.

Misunderstand me not, I give it a free pass as much as anyone. For me, with links golf in the DNA, it's always been part of the game and I've always accepted it as such. Whether I should or not is a different matter.

[Carl Johnson]

Not gorse.  Gorse isn't native to the British Isles or North America.  Gorse = water hazard, but the rules don't allow one to play it like a water hazard.

Gorse isn't native to the UK?  Where'd it come from, outer space?

Tom,

From the web: Gorse is a spiny shrub from the Mediterranean region of western Europe. (Emphasis added.)  This shrub has been introduced to other countries where it competes very successfully with native vegetation. Gorse is suited to mild maritime climates like those of southwestern B. C. It readily competes for well-drained areas where the soils have been excessively disturbed or are naturally poor. Gorse has become increasingly prevalent on roadsides, newly harvested and other disturbed sites in south coastal areas. There is concern that gorse is spreading and could pose a greater threat to forests and other resources.

I did some research on this a while ago, my golf balls having been eaten alive by it.  My recollection is that it's thought the Romans introduced it during their conquest period on the island.  One definition of native: "Native plant is a term to describe plants endemic (indigenous) or naturalized to a given area in geologic time."  (Emphasis added.)  Since the Roman period was about 2000 - 1600 years ago, or so, which is not what I'd call "geologic time," I'd say gorse is not native to the British Isles.  Obviously, it has become naturalized there and other places since Roman times.  So, you may say it's just a matter of semantics.
Carl

[David_Tepper]

"Gorse = water hazard, but the rules don't allow one to play it like a water hazard."

Carl J. makes a very valid point. There are those who would look askance at a hole in Florida with water on one side from tee to green, yet would praise a hole on a links in Scotland with gorse on one side from tee to green. In terms of playability of the hole, there is little difference.

At least with water, you play a lost ball as a lateral hazard and get to drop at the point of entry. Losing one in the gorse is stroke and distance, insult added to injury.

 

[Paul Gray]

Of course, gorse does act as an excellent source of golf balls for the more industrious amongst the Junior Section of a club. 

[David_Tepper]

"Of course, gorse does act as an excellent source of golf balls for the more industrious amongst the Junior Section of a club."

Paul -

So does water, as long as you keep an eye out for the alligators.

Dt

[Tom_Doak]

From the web: Gorse is a spiny shrub from the Mediterranean region of western Europe. (Emphasis added.)  This shrub has been introduced to other countries where it competes very successfully with native vegetation. Gorse is suited to mild maritime climates like those of southwestern B. C. It readily competes for well-drained areas where the soils have been excessively disturbed or are naturally poor. Gorse has become increasingly prevalent on roadsides, newly harvested and other disturbed sites in south coastal areas. There is concern that gorse is spreading and could pose a greater threat to forests and other resources.

I did some research on this a while ago, my golf balls having been eaten alive by it.  My recollection is that it's thought the Romans introduced it during their conquest period on the island.  One definition of native: "Native plant is a term to describe plants endemic (indigenous) or naturalized to a given area in geologic time."  (Emphasis added.)  Since the Roman period was about 2000 - 1600 years ago, or so, which is not what I'd call "geologic time," I'd say gorse is not native to the British Isles.  Obviously, it has become naturalized there and other places since Roman times.  So, you may say it's just a matter of semantics.
Carl

Carl:

Thanks for the note.

I was surprised to find gorse growing in the trees on our site in Bordeaux ... I didn't realize that was closer to its native climate.

[Paul Gray]

"Of course, gorse does act as an excellent source of golf balls for the more industrious amongst the Junior Section of a club."

Paul -

So does water, as long as you keep an eye out for the alligators.

Dt

Not too many alligators over here but the water temperature might be just as dangerous right now.  

[Ken Moum]

Of course, gorse does act as an excellent source of golf balls for the more industrious amongst the Junior Section of a club. 

Even better was.the guy I saw walking along the buckthorn at N. Berwick last year. He had a nice little working cocker spaniel with hin and was carrying what I asumed was a poop bag.

Turns out it was a bag of golf balls. The dog was hunting them... by scent.

Back on topic, yes people do give a pass to the abominable plant that is gorse. And there are more than afew places where the short grass isnt nearly wide enough to justify that attitude, IMHO.

But then, I mostly think difficult courses get way too much love.

K

[James Boon]

From the web: Gorse is a spiny shrub from the Mediterranean region of western Europe. (Emphasis added.)  This shrub has been introduced to other countries where it competes very successfully with native vegetation. Gorse is suited to mild maritime climates like those of southwestern B. C. It readily competes for well-drained areas where the soils have been excessively disturbed or are naturally poor. Gorse has become increasingly prevalent on roadsides, newly harvested and other disturbed sites in south coastal areas. There is concern that gorse is spreading and could pose a greater threat to forests and other resources.

I did some research on this a while ago, my golf balls having been eaten alive by it.  My recollection is that it's thought the Romans introduced it during their conquest period on the island.  One definition of native: "Native plant is a term to describe plants endemic (indigenous) or naturalized to a given area in geologic time."  (Emphasis added.)  Since the Roman period was about 2000 - 1600 years ago, or so, which is not what I'd call "geologic time," I'd say gorse is not native to the British Isles.  Obviously, it has become naturalized there and other places since Roman times.  So, you may say it's just a matter of semantics.
Carl

Carl:

Thanks for the note.

I was surprised to find gorse growing in the trees on our site in Bordeaux ... I didn't realize that was closer to its native climate.

Carl, Tom,

I'm not a botanist but as far as I'm aware gorse is native to the UK.

To clarify I asked my wife who is an ecologist and she said it was. I expanded upon this by checking our copy of Flora Britannica by Richard Mabey, The Royal Horticultural Society website and various other books and random sources on the internet, all which say there are 3 species of gorse native to the UK.

I'm happy to be proven wrong but based on the above searches I'm going with it being native 

Cheers,

James

[Carl Johnson]

From the web: Gorse is a spiny shrub from the Mediterranean region of western Europe. (Emphasis added.)  This shrub has been introduced to other countries where it competes very successfully with native vegetation. Gorse is suited to mild maritime climates like those of southwestern B. C. It readily competes for well-drained areas where the soils have been excessively disturbed or are naturally poor. Gorse has become increasingly prevalent on roadsides, newly harvested and other disturbed sites in south coastal areas. There is concern that gorse is spreading and could pose a greater threat to forests and other resources.

I did some research on this a while ago, my golf balls having been eaten alive by it.  My recollection is that it's thought the Romans introduced it during their conquest period on the island.  One definition of native: "Native plant is a term to describe plants endemic (indigenous) or naturalized to a given area in geologic time."  (Emphasis added.)  Since the Roman period was about 2000 - 1600 years ago, or so, which is not what I'd call "geologic time," I'd say gorse is not native to the British Isles.  Obviously, it has become naturalized there and other places since Roman times.  So, you may say it's just a matter of semantics.
Carl

Carl:

Thanks for the note.

I was surprised to find gorse growing in the trees on our site in Bordeaux ... I didn't realize that was closer to its native climate.

Carl, Tom,

I'm not a botanist but as far as I'm aware gorse is native to the UK.

To clarify I asked my wife who is an ecologist and she said it was. I expanded upon this by checking our copy of Flora Britannica by Richard Mabey, The Royal Horticultural Society website and various other books and random sources on the internet, all which say there are 3 species of gorse native to the UK.

I'm happy to be proven wrong but based on the above searches I'm going with it being native  

Cheers,

James

James, I'm aware of that -- I've seen the same thing.  The difference may have to do with how one defines "native."  I may take the time to do some additional research.  I do have a very strong recollection of reading once that the Romans brought it in, which would jive with the description of gorse being native to the western Mediterranean.   I'm not a botanist or ecologist either, but have a lot of hobby interest in those areas.

Carl

[Thomas Dai]

Ernie Els ball in a branch of a gorse bush at The Open at Royal Troon.

As I recall, after driving into this spot EE proceeded to play a shot with an iron with the clubs shaft raised to about parallel with the ground. He hit the ball on the top edge of the clubhead....it didn't go very far.


(photo from golf.com website)

atb

[James Boon]

Carl,

From what you have written I see what you mean about how one defines native, especially going back to Roman introductions which can be misrepresented by many as native.

However, if the RHS, possibly the foremost source on plant and gardening related matters in the country (not necessarily history though) term it as native, that seems pretty good to me. I've also found lists of various plants the Romans introduced to the UK and can't find any reference to gorse?

However as I said, and hopefully the smiley shows, I'd rather learn something new than blindly fight a corner. So please do the further research and let us know.

Cheers,

James

[Marc Haring]

Gorse's botanical name is ulex europaeus which may give an indication as to it's origin, i.e. Europe. I always thought it was indigenous to the UK and Wikipedia has it as such.

I am in agreement though, it is as penal as water as is maybe rhododendrons and laurel

Heather though, can and perhaps should be maintained as a playable hazard. I've even seen it growing on the fairways of some golf courses so it can be quite happy being mown down.