[Jim_Coleman]

   Greg:  I certainly don't think you lied.  I do think you may not have fully considered the options presented to you.  That may be a facet of good architecture.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I may be wrong - but doesn't Indian Creek have St Augustine rough?

[John Percival]

Bill,
Given the expense of buying land and building on oceanfront property, real estate is not only a necessary component, it is probably THE component that is most important to the FINANCIAL element of the course. Especially on locations removed from the US and Europe where access is difficult, greens fees wont be enough to entice investors. Thus, those lots that separate some holes become a nuisance, but they help pay the way for the course.
Though I have yet to play PE, in looking at the routing on-line, they were able to site 8 holes along the water. That is an impressive number, given the value that property would hold for lots (see El Dorado in Cabo).
So, yes, the longer walks are less than ideal, but without them, there would probably not be a course. Or at least a course situated so spectacularly.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Greg,

I'm intrigued.
Will be interesting to see.
Will report.
Hopefully it was just a short term maintenance issue.

I've certainly had my fill lately of high end courses which feature almost exclusively super tight, soft surrounds in the name of "options", when truly the only option is putting or worse yet a hybrid
I do love tight bermuda if presented dryly

If good players, with good short games, consistently choose only to putt, those aren't options at all, and allow a poor chipper/pitcher to hide on what are essentially enlarged greens.

Variety is the spice of life, and I certainly like to see a mix of fairway turf (I see no need for this to be subfairway, walk mowed height), semi rough as you describe, and actual rough. (which admittedly was overused until a few years ago)
the old theory that everyone is the same out of the rough around the greens is utter nonsense as an elite wedge player can truly separate himself from an inexperienced/lower skilled wedge player-especially out of bermuda.

As an aside , I spent an amazing morning yesterday on Emerald Dunes short game area.
Great variety, lies, stances, 110 yards and in, 5 greens, fairway,bunkers, rough, not overwatered or soft.
plenty of basic stuff, but as many tough situations as you'd want/need to create
Could've spent the whole day there-had to catch my flight

Their Supt, Erin Stevens does a tremendous job. Spoke to him yesterday-said he had the greens pretty slick. Their short game/19th hole area is the best around here, as good as any in FL.

[Greg Tallman]

   Greg:  I certainly don't think you lied.  I do think you may not have fully considered the options presented to you.  That may be a facet of good architecture.

That is a rather bold and presumptuous statement there.

I think I have played enough golf to fully understand the options available to me on any given shot, particularly around the greens.

[John Percival]

Bill,
Am looking fwd to the opportunity to compare, if only to get back to TOTD.
And play Dyefore for the first time.

When we played TOTD, we hired a caddie and took a cart. He drove and we walked. We would have preferred a caddie for each of us, but they were limited, so to stretch out the supply ( and save him lugging two bags ) we took just one.
Perhaps you could give that a try when facing the long g to t courses. Hop in the cart whenever needed and walk the balance.
Plus, the cart is a GREAT drink holder!

[Greg Tallman]

John, I agree with all your points.

Tom Clasby & I ventured to Capa Cana this year specfically to see if Punta Espada was a Golf Magazine World Top 100 course & we both felt that while there were a half a dozen really interesting holes, the real estate routing makes playing Punta Espada a non worthwile venture for those seeking out a special golf course.  We played 2 rounds at PE & cancelled our 3rd round, life is too short for dumbed down cartball courses.

If you think Punta Espada is even in the same league as the Teeth of the Dog, you're probably a chronic cartballer.

Or looking at it from an oceanfront development/sales standpoint. For the average guy looking for a $2million+ second/third home Punta Espada is a pretty nice development. Must admit I paid little attention to drives between holes but don't actually recall any ridiculous (central Fla style) treks.

[Chris Munoz]

Kind of surprised no one has mentioned Corales.  But that is a good thing.  A hidden treasure in the Caribbean.  Corales might not have that many holes on the water.  But the inland holes are way better then teeth and Punta espada.  Green surrounds and shot options.  Corales is 100 percent sea isle supreme paspalum.  With over 200 acres grassed. 

Couple pts about teeth.  I love playing teeth always a good challenge. Greens are always slick and in great condition.  I just think they need to start and take down some trees and start thinning them out.  Couple of the green surrounds are covered with tree limbs.  As for the rough I have no problem with the turf. As long it is mowed.  Cannot let the st Aug. Grow to high.

[Greg Tallman]

Kind of surprised no one has mentioned Corales.  But that is a good thing.  A hidden treasure in the Caribbean.  Corales might not have that many holes on the water.  But the inland holes are way better then teeth and Punta espada.  Green surrounds and shot options.  Corales is 100 percent sea isle supreme paspalum.  With over 200 acres grassed. 

Couple pts about teeth.  I love playing teeth always a good challenge. Greens are always slick and in great condition.  I just think they need to start and take down some trees and start thinning them out.  Couple of the green surrounds are covered with tree limbs.  As for the rough I have no problem with the turf. As long it is mowed.  Cannot let the st Aug. Grow to high.

Chris, only time for a pair of rounds and thus Teeth and PE were the choices. My buddies hosted a pro am their a few weeks back and said Corales' conditioning was near perfection though they and their guests preferred playing PE, seaside golf wins the day I suppose.

[jeffwarne]

Played teeth of the Dog today
True, the greens are surrounded by a mix of paspalum and bermuda, but it is cut to fairway height, and in my opinion is perfect as the fairway height is not excessively short at all-circa 1985. i.e there is some grass to actually achieve reasonable contact.
Definitely true that the surrounds are not maintained at the "modern super tight/short conditions " one sees so often.
KUDOS to them.
I've hit a variety of running shots over the last 3 days, even with rain EVERY night, some torrential. Granted some have been hooking 8 irons.
Too many people today think the ground game should mean they can putt from anywhere-ick
I have used many different shots over tha last 3 days but to be fair, the grain of the greens will certainly tolerate an aeriel game as the ball will stop quickly.
To me it's a bit of a retro throwback and it's GREAT to actually see amateurs actually make decent contact with a wedge around the green due to actual grass around the greens.
It was not maintained at rough height though, just a cushy, retro fairway.

It ain't  a links and it isn't fast and firm, but the ground game is still possible when needed.

The centipede roughs were very short and perfect-provide contrast and provided an unusual challenge for a good player(fliers and fear of going under) and were pretty easy for a poor player.

IMHO the world has gone way overboard with the "fad" of firm and fast-because it's rarely firm, usually just fast.
Putting only is BS, unimaginative, boring, and a copout
and I know and appreciate actual firm and not always fast-when conditions and climate allow

[Keith OHalloran]

IMHO the world has gone way overboard with the "fad" of firm and fast.
 

This Jeff, yes!    It seems we are in an unhealthy obsession.

[Jim Sherma]

IMHO the world has gone way overboard with the "fad" of firm and fast.
 

This Jeff, yes!    It seems we are in an unhealthy obsession.

Really tight and mushy lies around the greens are the worst. Putting or a hybrid/6-iron bump are the best options if available. if you have to go up in the air there is so little margin for error. Firm and tight allows you some error to slide a wedge under the ball. Mushy and tight gives you none. I am not sure I ever am in a position to feel real fear in my life, but this combination is probably as close as I get.

[Jason Topp]

IMHO the world has gone way overboard with the "fad" of firm and fast.
 

This Jeff, yes!    It seems we are in an unhealthy obsession.

Really tight and mushy lies around the greens are the worst. Putting or a hybrid/6-iron bump are the best options if available. if you have to go up in the air there is so little margin for error. Firm and tight allows you some error to slide a wedge under the ball. Mushy and tight gives you none. I am not sure I ever am in a position to feel real fear in my life, but this combination is probably as close as I get.

 I agree regarding mushy and tight.  In stroke play I will just hit a hybrid and be content to get it on the green in such circumstances. 

I disagree on tight and firm lies around the green.  I face a lot of them at my club which I joined two years ago and early on it was a real struggle.  Mis-hit chip shots were terrible but I found it nearly impossible to control distance on hybrid shots or putts.  The greens were too fast to allow me to control such shots in the same fashion I could with a solid chip. 

As a result - I went to the practice green and practiced until I could hit a chip solidly.  It took about 5 sessions.  I am still working on the lob shot from a tight lie when a bunker intervenes but I have improved my ability significantly. 

I would not have had the incentive to work on those shots on a course with rough surrounding the green or with more forgiving fairway grass.

If a course feature incents you to go out and improve your game, while still providing a playable alternative in the meantime, I consider it a good feature.

[jeffwarne]

IMHO the world has gone way overboard with the "fad" of firm and fast.
 

This Jeff, yes!    It seems we are in an unhealthy obsession.

Really tight and mushy lies around the greens are the worst. Putting or a hybrid/6-iron bump are the best options if available. if you have to go up in the air there is so little margin for error. Firm and tight allows you some error to slide a wedge under the ball. Mushy and tight gives you none. I am not sure I ever am in a position to feel real fear in my life, but this combination is probably as close as I get.

 I agree regarding mushy and tight.  In stroke play I will just hit a hybrid and be content to get it on the green in such circumstances. 

I disagree on tight and firm lies around the green.  I face a lot of them at my club which I joined two years ago and early on it was a real
I would not have had the incentive to work on those shots on a course with rough surrounding the green or with more forgiving fairway grass.

If a course feature incents you to go out and improve your game, while still providing a playable alternative in the meantime, I consider it a good feature.

Agree 100%.
firm and tight do provide incentive to explore and improve one's short game and thus the options.
firm and not quite as tight work quite well also
Super short and moist(a frequent side effect of super tight) encourage one to forsake chipping/pitching in favor of solely putting ::)zzzzzzzz

[Roger Tufts]

Chiming in a bit late here, but my brother informed me this thread was going on and having just travelled to the DR, I couldn't resist.

I couldn't agree more with the initial assessment. While Teeth is perhaps architecturally better, I'd rather play Punta Espada likely most days. Unfortunately, I played both after stepping on some random sharp object hidden underwater on a completely sandy beach, and couldn't really put weight on my right side after getting stitches at a Dominican hospital. We did play the tips at both, though, so I got to see all of each track.

Punta Espada had some really inspiring holes in my opinion. Really loved #2. Didn't really love #10 as the whole green complex felt forced. Would like to play them again, but doubtful that will happen for quite some time.

[Jim_Coleman]

    Although I may be guilty of beating a dead horse, I have been playing the Teeth this past month with this thread in mind.  I would go so far as to state that there is not a single green complex that does not offer multiple options.  Literally every shot I have had around every green (and I don't hit all that many greens) has offered the choice of lob wedge, bumping into a hill, or putting.  I believe this is one of Pete's greatest talents, and the Teeth is a prime example.

[jeffwarne]

   Although I may be guilty of beating a dead horse, I have been playing the Teeth this past month with this thread in mind.  I would go so far as to state that there is not a single green complex that does not offer multiple options.  Literally every shot I have had around every green (and I don't hit all that many greens) has offered the choice of lob wedge, bumping into a hill, or putting.  I believe this is one of Pete's greatest talents, and the Teeth is a prime example.

Just played Isleworth where it was explained to me it was the "hardest chipping course in the world" by several good players and a couple tour players.
Sure enough, on the first hole I missed the green and had a very steep hill in front of me and somewhat grainy bermuda between me and the green and minimal green to work with.
answer? a hooked chip 8 iron which tumbled up nicely onto the green, though rolled a bit farther than I would've liked due to the super fast greens. I can see where Tour players wouldn't like not being able to hit exacting L wedge shots tight as they can't afford to leave a bounce or roll to chance and feel the need to go through the air. Which makes isleworth's approaches perfect IMHO as they might potentially confound those who only choose one type of shot when other safer though less perfectly predictable options are available.
Now the raised green shoulders sloping away from you coming out of every deep bunker from super firm sand are another issue .

[Jason Thurman]

I played Teeth of the Dog last week, and I'll join the chorus of disagreement with the original post. I don't doubt that Greg saw the course on a day where the conditions were off, but at my visit, the green surroundings were just about perfect. The turf was firm, cut snug but not scalped, and offered lots of options.


Jeff's comment above (and below, I guess) really stood out, even though he's talking about a different course.

Just played Isleworth where it was explained to me it was the "hardest chipping course in the world" by several good players and a couple tour players.
Sure enough, on the first hole I missed the green and had a very steep hill in front of me and somewhat grainy bermuda between me and the green and minimal green to work with.
answer? a hooked chip 8 iron which tumbled up nicely onto the green, though rolled a bit farther than I would've liked due to the super fast greens. I can see where Tour players wouldn't like not being able to hit exacting L wedge shots tight as they can't afford to leave a bounce or roll to chance and feel the need to go through the air. Which makes isleworth's approaches perfect IMHO as they might potentially confound those who only choose one type of shot when other safer though less perfectly predictable options are available.

This sounds exactly like my experience at Teeth of the Dog. The humps and hollows and bowls and mounds and irregularly shaped bunkers around the greens left a huge variety of lies with a huge variety of obstacles to cross on the way to the putting surface, and the small greens with their tongues and humps made for very exacting targets that required lots of thought on pitch and chip shots. I was constantly juggling options between hitting a high-risk flop shot and trying to get close versus bumping a ball hard into an upslope and knowing it would get on the putting surface, but that it might leave me 15 feet away from saving par or even birdie on the very reachable par 5s.


At the first hole, I caught a flyer out of the rough on my approach and missed in the hollow long. From there, I had the choice of a flop to get it close or a less precise chip through the fairway to get it safely on. I chose the latter and a perfectly executed (by my standards) bump-and-run hit into the upslope rolled out to 12 feet and left a disappointing but stress-free bogey. I was pin-high in two shots at the third hole, but an impossible lie in a finger of a bunker forced me to pitch out sideways and settle for another bogey and the regret that I didn't lay up with my second. Another miss long at 10 gave another opportunity for a safe bump and run, but this time I was emboldened by the green beyond the flag and a flop shot to four feet enabled a par save. Another run at a green in two shots on 11 left me with a hanging lie on the grass island greenside, and after the events eight holes before I decided to be content to leave 15 feet for birdie instead of playing aggressively. Countless times throughout, the course offers multiple options for greenside recoveries that range from very high-risk/very high-reward to the very safe but very low upside. After one play, Teeth of the Dog stands out as one of the best courses I've ever played from inside 30 yards to the flag.

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