News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Strategic V Penal Design
« on: December 09, 2014, 10:03:26 AM »
The Castle Stuart thread was interesting for the debate about strategic golf.  

First, lets forget that strategy is employed by the golfer, not the course.  So, the entire concept was given a bad name...let it go Rihc  :D

To me, strategic golf is simple, more options open to the player than penal golf allows.  Its a spectrum (for which I am sure mark B can come up with a cool graphic  ;)).  One option is defined as the ultimate in penal.  That may involve a forced carry or playing between two hazards (lets call all trouble hazards...water, rough, bunkers, craters, mounds etc).  I suggest (my opinion only) that a penal course probably has as many as half the holes where the golfer doesn't take a decision as to the line of a shot and/or where to hit the ball on short grass (lets forget about decisions to purposely play in the rough etc)...think Oakland Hills...about half the holes are penal in nature and it has a rep for being a very penal course.  

While you are thinking Oakland Hills, forget about a judgement call about good, bad or indifferent connected with penal golf. I reckon this was the biggest mistake the ODGs made...creating a false battle between good (strategic design) and evil (penal design).  Its all good stuff.  The question is the balance of penal and strategic and the quality of the holes...and I am afraid there will never be consensus on that.  But it does seem to be the case that if about half of the holes are penal, the course is considered a penal design.  Some may think the number is closer to a third when the needle points to penal.  I think we all have our own threshold.  I am don't know where I stand on this, but I know a penal course when I see it.  The thing is, all is not what it seems.  Lets consider North Berwick; a course everybody loves, even Mark Pearce  :D When we consider the style of holes it can be argued that #s 1, 2, 3, 7, 12, 13, 16 and 17 are all essentially penal holes.  Even if folks take issue with one or two, that is still a lot of penal holes.  Yet, nobody thinks of North Berwick as penal simply because so many of the penal holes are a ton of fun and unusual.  Same for Brancaster...nobody spouts on about how penal the design is (and it is)...its accepted and loved.    

Continuing on the spectrum, we can argue about this and that, but strategic golf really starts with a choice of two decisions.  There can be an infinite (in theory anyway) amount of choices with a diagonal hazard, but for it to be a truly strategic feature, there must be a way around the hazard without a head on confrontation...head on diagonals may be very good design, but if the carry is forced, it is in essence a penal feature...albeit with nuances.  Choices, especially those which temp golfers into taking a foolish risk, can be seen as the essence of golf and in theory I agree.  However, I suggest that a ton of our most beloved holes are in essence of penal nature.  So the concept can't be tossed aside lightly because some ODG said options is mother milk of golf.  Golf is a much richer game for the penal side of design, but it takes a clever archie to know when to push the pedal down and when to hit the brake.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 10:34:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 10:12:19 AM »
Sean:

I agree with you that the distinction between the Strategic and Penal schools [and the Heroic, if you want to let Trent Jones take credit for inventing his own] is confusing to most, and not the best way to evaluate golf courses.

The goal is to build a golf course with great variety, and that view allows a range of holes from both schools, or all three, or even the fourth school that hasn't yet been invented.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 10:20:26 AM »
Sean,

Yes, I have always said one choice is penal, two or three choices is strategic.   Rees Jones once added "4 is confusing" which I can even sort of understand.  When it comes (these days) to turf reduction, the ability to provide 4 choices is getting harder and harder to do.  For that matter, no one ever played that prize winning hole with 4 route options, so we don't know if options 3 and 4 would have ever gotten used.  Sometimes, its just not worth it.

With an open front green (partially, of course) and gently rolling contours, the question of how close to hit to the pin vs. the fatter, easier middle is a strategic choice on every hole.

I recall a strategic bunker discussion here years ago.  I made the comment that if you place a FW bunker out somewhere near the LZ, you can count on some golfers to over think it.  Doak commented, listing like 11 different things a golfer might do with a single fw bunker on the left, carry it, stay short, hook around it, etc. etc. etc. proving my point (and yours, that it is the golfer who employs the thinking, not the course) and its hard to think like 25 million individual golfers might think.  Just put something partially/partly in their way and it is strategic.

Obviously, some locations and concepts work better than others, and should be favored.  Why build a nominally good strategic feature if others could be done?  That leads to the discussion of "why not use the best on every course?" and then to using template holes.....It should make for the most variety on any one course, if well chosen, but limit variety over the course of one architect's career.  Should that matter if every course has the widest variety of (good) challenges in the architect's mind?

Another random strategy though, but I once posted some sort of math analysis (probably not statistically valid, but who cares) about how many strokes strategy might save a good player vs. pure skill?  I mean, there may be two par 5's reachable in two, or playing close to the pin might (might) net another birdie (maybe two birds and one bogey)  In the end, I concluded that skill accounts for over 90% of score, with perhaps a 2-3 stroke difference allocated mostly to strategy.  My goal, then, is to set up a variety of shots ( a la my "good test of golf thread" because encouraging a hook or fade, low or high, might tend to penal (for those who can't hit that shot) or at least a "skill challenge" without there being a real choice of good shots, other than a nice bail out if you can't or choose not to hit the preferred shot.  That really is a blend, and there is no pure strategic vs penal shot in modern golf, me thinks.

BTW, I agree that there should be a few penal holes on almost any course.  Or penal shots, such as a forced carry to a green, regardless of how strategic the tee shot may be.  Or a narrow fairway, etc.

And, like TD says, just put in as much variety as possible and golfers should like it.  Had a recent design discussion (first with design associate, then with owner) on the merits of putting a 15,000 SF green in on a short par 3.  Both said we should reduce the green to make it "more like the others".  Horse Feathers (in my book)  Isn't the point to make each hole different?  Now, you could argue the merits of a large green on a short par 3, but it will have all sorts of valleys, humps, and contours.  Personally, I put the smallest greens on the longest par 3 and 4 holes as sort of a penal target, forcing long iron accuracy.

Just random thoughts generally agreeing with your premise.  Not edited for form.....but I did add a few thoughts in multiple edits. LOL
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 10:26:46 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 10:25:20 AM »
If all this mumbo/jumbo is true how can you explain that the penal White Course at Dismal is three to four shots easier than the Strategic Red.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2014, 10:27:47 AM »
JK,

no rule saying courses all have to be the same difficulty, so they aren't.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2014, 10:36:05 AM »
"Strategic" is just a fancy way of saying "I like that hole!"

"Penal" is just a fancy way of saying "That hole is too hard for me."
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2014, 10:41:35 AM »
Jason,

Not too often someone can out cynic JK on a thread!  Nice job, I think.

But, I happen to disagree.  I like Sean's thoughts, along the mostly good idea that you can go nuts trying to quantify or label the concepts perfectly.  I guess, if it was possible to do, someone would have done it by now!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2014, 10:50:33 AM »
Jeff, I'm really just agreeing with Sean's premise, or at least this part:

Lets consider North Berwick; a course everybody loves, even Mark Pearce  :D When we consider the style of holes it can be argued that #s 1, 2, 3, 7, 12, 13, 16 and 17 are all essentially penal holes.  Even if folks take issue with one or two, that is still a lot of penal holes.  Yet, nobody thinks of North Berwick as penal simply because so many of the penal holes are a ton of fun and unusual.  Same for Brancaster...nobody spouts on about how penal the design is (and it is)...its accepted and loved.     

No one thinks of North Berwick or Brancaster as penal, simply because they like those courses and, presumably, they don't find them to be too difficult.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2014, 11:02:51 AM »
Jason,

Agreed.  Again, those were some of my thoughts on the "good test of golf" thread.  You can be asked to hit a lot of different shots, without being punished a lot for missing them.

Case in point is the classic Cape Hole.  Angled water down the left and a wide FW, strategic surely.  How many following architects (myself included) have taken that Cape and felt compelled to add fw bunkrs on the far side? 

Is that then penal for punishing the overly safe shot, or does/can a main hazard always need a lesser complimentary hazard just to keep golfers somewhat honest?  I guess I don't really care if I like the hole.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2014, 11:03:06 AM »
Jeff, I'm really just agreeing with Sean's premise, or at least this part:

Lets consider North Berwick; a course everybody loves, even Mark Pearce  :D When we consider the style of holes it can be argued that #s 1, 2, 3, 7, 12, 13, 16 and 17 are all essentially penal holes.  Even if folks take issue with one or two, that is still a lot of penal holes.  Yet, nobody thinks of North Berwick as penal simply because so many of the penal holes are a ton of fun and unusual.  Same for Brancaster...nobody spouts on about how penal the design is (and it is)...its accepted and loved.     

No one thinks of North Berwick or Brancaster as penal, simply because they like those courses and, presumably, they don't find them to be too difficult.

Jason

I think you are right.  These courses provide several penal holes, but comfortably less than half are real ball breakers; which demonstrates that penal isn't necessarily about difficulty, its just that difficulty is the main point people associate with penal.  That said, even some of the real ball breaker penal holes are loved...often because the quality of the hole compels golfers to love the holes.  Think about Foxy, Sea Headrig, Calamity Corner and on and on.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2014, 11:51:51 AM »
Case in point is the classic Cape Hole.  Angled water down the left and a wide FW, strategic surely.  How many following architects (myself included) have taken that Cape and felt compelled to add fw bunkrs on the far side? 

Is that then penal for punishing the overly safe shot, or does/can a main hazard always need a lesser complimentary hazard just to keep golfers somewhat honest?  I guess I don't really care if I like the hole.

Jeff, I think adding hazards to the far side would be penal. Not doing so allows the player to pick his poison: tee shot or approach. Bailing out safe takes the player further from the green, leading to a longer shot in to a green immediately flanked by water.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2014, 12:02:23 PM »
JK,

no rule saying courses all have to be the same difficulty, so they aren't.

Yes but modern recognized "great" architecture is trending towards everyone scoring the same.  While hardly possible isn't the perfect course where at the end of the day everyone's handicap is the same?  It's a strategic algorithm defined by less talented but more aware golfers.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2014, 12:06:10 PM »
Sean, Jeff, +1 to both your posts. The below photos summarize my thoughts when I first opened the thread.

Everyone agrees this hole is "strategic." Bite off as much as you can chew from the tee.




The premise of this hole is the same as the one above, but lots of people would call it "penal" simply because it uses water instead of sand to present the same decision.




And here we have what is essentially a "cape" par 3, which essentially is just a shorter version of the holes above. Again, venture as close to the hazard as you dare. When this hole was discussed on the Pete Dye GC hole-by-hole thread, the primary criticism was that it was "too penal."




The first hole pictured above is lauded as "strategic" because you can swing boldly for Position A and you don't have to deal with a penalty stroke or a $3 lost ball if you fail. You might even manage to save par! The second hole is "fairly penal" because the stakes are high if you swing boldly for Position A, and playing safely to Position B isn't really much fun, and any hole that doesn't let you aggressively and stupidly pursue an ideal angle for your approach with no ramifications beyond a giggle and a funny stance feels like a cold shower even if it still gives you the same options as a "strategic" hole. And the third hole... well it's total bullshit that someone might not be able to fire right at a back left pin without having to carry water, or that the safe play might lead to an uneventful bogey. Options only really work if we don't have to risk our self-esteem in the process of choosing which one to take.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2014, 12:06:57 PM »
If all this mumbo/jumbo is true how can you explain that the penal White Course at Dismal is three to four shots easier than the Strategic Red.

Maybe your physical ability is superior to your mental ability.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 12:20:46 PM »
Jason - the water for sure changes the risk/reward calculation, because going in the water is typically worse than going in an area of sandy, therefore trying to hug the hazard is a riskier shot. But the confusion you cite exists because 'penal' has two meanings. There is a penal hole, i.e. one which is specifically designed to punish mistakes and test execution, and there are hazards that are more or less penal (i.e. punishing) than others. A hole can have a hazard that is extremely penal but still be focused on strategy.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2014, 12:28:02 PM »
The 4th at Woking is a great strategic hole (sorry Rich and Jon), with the most penal of all hazards, OOB.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 01:32:40 PM »
Sean,

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the Castle Stuart thread, but it was the Castle Stuart thread that got me thinking this and Mark's point about the OOB on the 4th at Woking strikes a note as well...

Our appreciation of the strategy is increased more by the penal surroundings, but a course such as Castle Stuart is for me no less strategic. It seems many of the strategic options at Castle Stuart for instance offer an ideal or easier route in from one side of a fairway and a less than ideal approach from the other side. Not a penal or brutal approach perhaps, just less than ideal. So from the less than ideal approach the better golfer wont be scared by the approach but might struggle to get a birdie, while the lesser golfer might not run up a double but a par is pretty much out of the question.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2014, 01:48:01 PM »
It seems like a fools errand to try to classify whole golf courses as penal or strategic.  I suppose it's possible at the hole level.  But, I think that the words "penal" and "strategic" get in the way of the discussion.  In my opinion they are not on the same spectrum.  Perhaps the discussion would be more enlightening if we considered three spectrums.

                               strategic (meaning there are options)   <<<----->>>   dictative (meaning there are no choices)


            penal (meaning you lose a stoke or two for mishits)   <<<----->>>   forgiving (there's no stroke penalty for a mishit)


                                    hard (meaning difficult to score on)   <<<----->>>   easy (meaning easy to score on)


Seems to me holes can be any combinations of characteristics on these spectra.  A hole like the 17th at Sawgrass is dictative and penal but easy to score on if you hit a good short iron shot.  The 2nd at Pacific Dunes is strategic, but forgiving, but can be difficult to score on.  I'm sure there are many other holes that could be brought forward to illustrate other combinations.


BTW Sean, I have trouble with the 1st at North Berwick being even arguably penal.  There are a number of options off the tee which take the beach right out of play, and which provide a number of different angles to the green which may be more or less beneficial.  The green being huge and tilted could be considered penal in that 3 putts is always a real possibility, but on the whole I'd say the hole is strategic, forgiving and easy.  My wife was able to play it without penalty and didn't run up a big score.   ;)


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2014, 02:01:19 PM »
Sean, Jeff, +1 to both your posts. The below photos summarize my thoughts when I first opened the thread.

Everyone agrees this hole is "strategic." Bite off as much as you can chew from the tee.




The premise of this hole is the same as the one above, but lots of people would call it "penal" simply because it uses water instead of sand to present the same decision.




And here we have what is essentially a "cape" par 3, which essentially is just a shorter version of the holes above. Again, venture as close to the hazard as you dare. When this hole was discussed on the Pete Dye GC hole-by-hole thread, the primary criticism was that it was "too penal."




The first hole pictured above is lauded as "strategic" because you can swing boldly for Position A and you don't have to deal with a penalty stroke or a $3 lost ball if you fail. You might even manage to save par! The second hole is "fairly penal" because the stakes are high if you swing boldly for Position A, and playing safely to Position B isn't really much fun, and any hole that doesn't let you aggressively and stupidly pursue an ideal angle for your approach with no ramifications beyond a giggle and a funny stance feels like a cold shower even if it still gives you the same options as a "strategic" hole. And the third hole... well it's total bullshit that someone might not be able to fire right at a back left pin without having to carry water, or that the safe play might lead to an uneventful bogey. Options only really work if we don't have to risk our self-esteem in the process of choosing which one to take.

Jason

The par 3 to me is definitely of the penal nature because play is between and/or over hazards.  The other two are more ambiguous because they do appear to have an escape route to avoid the hazards.  That said, and this is just my opinion, there has to be some nod to width when the safety option is offered.  I can't tell how much space there is between the water and trees in the second pic, but it looks tight.  So from this perspective, anything to do with strategic design requires some element of forgiving width...otherwise the holes are really penal disguised as strategic holes.  

Boony

Yes, your example highlights why I prefer a liberal definition of "hazard" when discussing design styles.  I know some think that there can be too much width, so much so that the strategy is removed by such little risk.  I have only experienced a few holes like this myself (on real courses  :D) and don't worry that its a real problem of design.   I see the second pic of Jason's as much larger issue if playability is to be taken seriously.        

Bryan

Thats fine, but I consider a forced aerial approach as penal; indeed, NB's 1st is a classic example of penal.  It is theoretically no different than hitting over water or sand.  I don't think it is a particularly difficult version of the penal school (that is really one of the great charms of NB), but then I can get the ball in the air.  Others make think the hole is penal an awful.    

I would prefer to keep the element of difficulty out of the picture for strategic and penal...the difficulty really has nothing to do with the theory.  Just as the severity of the hazard has nothing to do with the theory...they are both important, but really other aspects of design.  I think this is an important distinction because otherwise we are really just talking about our games...what is hard or easy to us.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2014, 02:04:11 PM »
Sean,
I wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the Castle Stuart thread, but it was the Castle Stuart thread that got me thinking this and Mark's point about the OOB on the 4th at Woking strikes a note as well...
Our appreciation of the strategy is increased more by the penal surroundings, but a course such as Castle Stuart is for me no less strategic. It seems many of the strategic options at Castle Stuart for instance offer an ideal or easier route in from one side of a fairway and a less than ideal approach from the other side. Not a penal or brutal approach perhaps, just less than ideal. So from the less than ideal approach the better golfer wont be scared by the approach but might struggle to get a birdie, while the lesser golfer might not run up a double but a par is pretty much out of the question.
Cheers,
James

Nicely put James. When I read your Castle Stuart post I was immediatley impressed with the way you described things there, namely, "...the higher handicaps I was with found the forgiveness off the tee a real help, but I had to really grind to get a decent score. I occasionally found the wrong part of the fairway and almost felt like I had no shot if I needed to hit the green in regulation".

The degree of strategic/penalness surely also depends on the level of player. For example, what is penal for one player, like say a strong, skilled player who gives the ball a serious bit of biff will be different to what is penal for high hcppers, ladies, short hitters etc.

Also, is there also a course maintenance element to penal/strategic? For example, a ball can be extracted from grass maintained as say 4 inch rough by a big strong bloke but not to the same extent by a player who isn't as physically strong.

atb

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2014, 02:14:09 PM »
If all this mumbo/jumbo is true how can you explain that the penal White Course at Dismal is three to four shots easier than the Strategic Red.

Maybe your physical ability is superior to your mental ability.

Given most of the mumbo jumbo he writes around here, that may almost be a given!  Strange that he of all people would take that phrase and apply to others. LOL
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2014, 02:16:37 PM »
If all this mumbo/jumbo is true how can you explain that the penal White Course at Dismal is three to four shots easier than the Strategic Red.

John,
For you. It is three or four strokes harder for me.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2014, 02:25:30 PM »
It has always struck me that many here call for severe penalties in bunkers, but would avoid water.  So there is some sense that the penalty has to be just the right amount, which may vary among golfers, perhaps due to game strength, time of life, goals, etc.  Hence the (probably endless and opinion based) discussion of sand vs. water or difficulty of hazards.  But strategy vs. penal ought to be some kind of greater truth most could agree on, even if shades of gray and never a definitive BW proposition.

Regarding that par 3 Dye hole, the safe option doesn't look proportionally safe enough, does it?  And the big question is should it be hard par, easy bogey, or something else? Is hard par, sure bogey strategic?  Or penal?  You have options, but there isn't really a GOOD second option.....

Obviously, the first chance has to offer the most chance of success, but somewhere in there, the second option must offer SOME chance of success for it to be strategic. Maybe even the third option.  It might also be possible that two distinct options offer similar chances of success, with the strategic choice by the golfer based on his own game strengths.  

However, if two or more routes to the hole offer exactly the same chance of success, the hole is more a dart board than strategic, no?  If it really doesn't matter at all where you play off the tee, what is the strategy?

That is why some holes just appear to be more strategic.  They somehow have that balance of differing options and penalty without the overbearing penalty.  If penalty is to strong, you typically play too safe.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2014, 02:36:30 PM »


Sean,

Quote
I would prefer to keep the element of difficulty out of the picture for strategic and penal...the difficulty really has nothing to do with the theory.  Just as the severity of the hazard has nothing to do with the theory...they are both important, but really other aspects of design.  I think this is an important distinction because otherwise we are really just talking about our games...what is hard or easy to us.

I was trying to broaden the theory.  Given the ongoing debate, the "theory" of Strategic v Penal seems fundamentally flawed to me.

Re the last sentence, how is difficulty different from strategy in theory - what may be strategic options on a hole for us may not be relevant to Bubba at one end of the scale or my wife at the other end.  Hard or easy depends to a degree on the ability of the player.  So too does strategic as well as penal.


Brent Hutto

Re: Strategic V Penal Design
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2014, 02:40:41 PM »
It has always struck me that many here call for severe penalties in bunkers, but would avoid water.  So there is some sense that the penalty has to be just the right amount, which may vary among golfers, perhaps due to game strength, time of life, goals, etc.  Hence the (probably endless and opinion based) discussion of sand vs. water or difficulty of hazards.  But strategy vs. penal ought to be some kind of greater truth most could agree on, even if shades of gray and never a definitive BW proposition.

I think the "no bunker rakes, no water hazards" crowd around here just happen to be a bunch of middling golfers who are fairly decent at hitting routine bunker shots but who can't trust their swing to strike the ball solidly when trying to hit over or tangentially to a water hazard.

If they had reliable swings that weren't prone to slicing or fatting shots under the pressure of a forced carry they wouldn't consider water so penal.

If they were true 20+ handicap hacks they'd think normally maintained bunkers with rakes were fairly intimidating hazards.

Kavanaugh, in his typical bloody-minded way, hit on a kernel of truth. A lot of the drumbeat for a certain type of "strategic" design is born of the desire that somehow or another playing "smart golf" will allow a clever golfer to think his way around the course in a similar number of strokes to someone who hits the ball straighter, farther, more consistently and has a better chipping and putting game.

There's no such thing, of course. Unless the better player can be counted on to be out and out stupid and piss away a bunch of stroke attempting shots he can't execute and ended up in penal hazards. In my experience, it's rare for the guys who are better golfers than me to be stupider than me when they're on the golf course. That's hoping for an awful lot.