[Joe Bentham]

okay fellow GCAers I have a favor to ask...a very good friend of mine who is also a long time looper here at Bandon Dunes golf resort will be in Ireland for christmas...he needs help gaining access to BallyBunion while he is there...unfortunately they are closed to visitors so he needs some help...he'll be in the area from the 18th of December through the the 27th.  If anybody can help please let me know..

[Will Lozier]

http://www.ballybuniongolfclub.ie/visitors/

[Jon Wiggett]

Wow, I am amazed they shut the courses to visitors through the winter but can understand why.

[Michael Latham]

joe,
I have tried to help but this is a cast iron rule and it is simply not possible.

[Greg Taylor]

First time i have heard of that in GB&I...

Shut full stop to visitors, maybe... but only the Winter... new one on me.

[jeffwarne]

Probably the best time to play for members.
My last 2 trips there have been like a visit to Disneyland....on a school holiday

Sometimes it's not great to be discovered...Ivan Morris laments just that in his book
"Only Golf Spoken Here"
the money flows in, but at what price?

[Sean_A]

I think BallyB is closed to visitors during the Christmas Hols.  This is very common among clubs.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes in the GB & I we have very little daylight hours in the winter months as you go further North so it needs to be for the members and very common not to have any room or very little roon so if booking is allowed it has to be last minute.

[Sean_A]

The feeling of hitting off crisp links turf on a crisp winter day is one our members will no longer experience.   

The mats were a major reason why I resigned membership of Pennard.  So far as I am concerned, winter is the golf season and to not be able to play off the fairway is a serious drag.  Even so, I often move my ball to the rough if I am fairly close to the edge of the fairway.  Last week it cost me on a few approaches bouncing through the greens...what a joy to see   

I think going forward it may be wise for many clubs not to offer a winter rate.  Courses can't take the beating 12 months a year.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Probably the best time to play for members.
My last 2 trips there have been like a visit to Disneyland....on a school holiday

Not any more it's not Jeff. Mats came into Tralee last year in response to (a) other clubs doing it  - keeping up with the Jones's and (b) to ensure the course is in tip top shape during the summer months. It's worth noting that during said Summer months, the course is invariably booked out solid during the week as "those times are on sale for green fees only" and on the weekend you have a 5 minute window at 6PM the previous Tuesday to secure a desirable spot.

Mats are mandatory now from early November to late March or early April and you can't even move the ball to the semi rough. The feeling of hitting off crisp links turf on a crisp winter day is one our members will no longer experience. Very sad.

Exactly my point.
At what price indeed.
Close the fairways all winter so the course is in pristine shape for......the visitors in the summer.
Makes no sense if you ask me......where does the money go?
To feed the same beast.
Who cares if dues are low (i would hope they're low with the income) if you can't access your course?

and to Sean's point, if the course can't take the wear, why offer the winter rate?
or a compromise-pay winter rate-mats-----normal rate use the fairways

[Sean_A]

The difference in conditioning last summer from the summer before was zero

The difference at Pennard was about three weeks of growth, but by June it is impossible to tell there were mats on for 4.5 months.  Its bonkers to have mats and offer a winter rate.  At expensive places (above £50 probably) just blow out the winter rate and the amount of play polices itself.  Not many folks will pay full whack for winter golf.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, the solution is simple - do what we have been doing at the club for years - move the fecking ball to the semi-rough. The difference in conditioning last summer from the summer before was zero - any differences would have been purely related to weather conditions. They'd be better off spending all that money they get in on more greens staff who can help eliminate all the poa that's out there. Instead, we're talking about building par 3 courses, a new clubhouse etc

What about decreasing visitor play in the summer?
How much money is needed?

[Sean_A]

Jeff

We rely seriously on visitor/guest fees...about 1/3 of our revenues.  I know in the States the solution is to get rid of the miscreants and raise the dues by a third  , but that wouldn't go over so well at many UK clubs.  That said, I would be willing to see my fees go 20% and get rid of most of the visitors, but I am a minority...I think...could be wrong. In truth, the idea is never floated to the members.  

Brian - yours was my exact argument to Pennard...I lost    I did, however win on temp greens by saying frost will essentially police the amount of play because many people will not play on frost.  Just ask the members to be sensible and walk around greens/least amount of walking on greens.  Everybody knows that balls are landing short so the greens don't take nearly the hit they do when really wet.  Anyway, Pennard changed their policy on this right after I resigned 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Brian,

the problem is often one of perception. One thing that is totally wrong at many clubs is the idea that the green keeping staff should be growing the best sward possible from an agronomical point of view when it should be to present the best golfing experience given the situation. I believe my views on this are well known but this is just another instance of where member's clubs have lost there way and become facilities with clients.

That said, I would be willing to see my fees go 20% and get rid of most of the visitors

NIMBY

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

We rely seriously on visitor/guest fees...about 1/3 of our revenues.  I know in the States the solution is to get rid of the miscreants and raise the dues by a third  , but that wouldn't go over so well at many UK clubs.  That said, I would be willing to see my fees go 20% and get rid of most of the visitors, but I am a minority...I think...could be wrong. In truth, the idea is never floated to the members.  

Brian - yours was my exact argument to Pennard...I lost    I did, however win on temp greens by saying frost will essentially police the amount of play because many people will not play on frost.  Just ask the members to be sensible and walk around greens/least amount of walking on greens.  Everybody knows that balls are landing short so the greens don't take nearly the hit they do when really wet.  Anyway, Pennard changed their policy on this right after I resigned 

Ciao

Sean,
When you say "we" that's a broad spectrum.
I completely agree with your thoughts and fully support a visitor policy to share the course and keep members' costs down.
I'm sure Gweedore's visitor revenue is nil, and I'd guess Ballybunion's is WAAAAY more than 1/3 of total revenues.
The UK/Ireland visitor play policy is a great win-win model when kept in balance.(and almost always is)
No doubt MANY/most UK/Ireland clubs would like to INCREASE their visitor play.

But at Ballybunion/Tralee it seems the visitor play is driving the bus far to the excess-and no doubt the more revenue the more beast feeding infrastructure gets built.
never understand why members would be unable to consistently access their own course. I mean would you join if it was free but you were never allowed to play ?
The times I've been to Bballybunion it's not a place I would ever consider joining, no matter how good the venue.
there comes a point when enough is enough.
there are plenty of clubs in the UK/Ireland with very reasonable joining fees and dues that have a LOT less to minimal visitior play, yet somehow they soldier on.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think mats on fairways in the winter will be the norm at the better UK clubs, though taking it to the wings is a great idea.

Winter golf can do 20 times the physical damage to the course that a single summer round can do, it is crazy really to discount but the product is lesser, some clubs are taking £12 and doing £15 of damage, shame more clubs dont close for January and February they would probably save money...problem is some members demand golf then and WOULD vote with their feet.

[Rob Marshall]

I think mats on fairways in the winter will be the norm at the better UK clubs, though taking it to the wings is a great idea.

Winter golf can do 20 times the physical damage to the course that a single summer round can do, it is crazy really to discount but the product is lesser, some clubs are taking £12 and doing £15 of damage, shame more clubs dont close for January and February they would probably save money...problem is some members demand golf then and WOULD vote with their feet.


If they vote with their feet they should be escorted off the grounds on their feet and the thrown out of the club.

I'm slightly naive as the the winter weather in Ireland. Does the grass go dormant in the colder weather so the divots don't comeback until the spring?

[Ally Mcintosh]

They take it to the side at Ballybee and I actually quite like it because it forces us to think about angles.

Generally, at Pormarnock, we've got through the past few winters with just a handful of fairways taken out of play at any one time and even then just in the major landing zones.

[Sean_A]

Jeff

We rely seriously on visitor/guest fees...about 1/3 of our revenues.  I know in the States the solution is to get rid of the miscreants and raise the dues by a third  , but that wouldn't go over so well at many UK clubs.  That said, I would be willing to see my fees go 20% and get rid of most of the visitors, but I am a minority...I think...could be wrong. In truth, the idea is never floated to the members.  

Brian - yours was my exact argument to Pennard...I lost    I did, however win on temp greens by saying frost will essentially police the amount of play because many people will not play on frost.  Just ask the members to be sensible and walk around greens/least amount of walking on greens.  Everybody knows that balls are landing short so the greens don't take nearly the hit they do when really wet.  Anyway, Pennard changed their policy on this right after I resigned 

Ciao

Sean,
When you say "we" that's a broad spectrum.
I completely agree with your thoughts and fully support a visitor policy to share the course and keep members' costs down.
I'm sure Gweedore's visitor revenue is nil, and I'd guess Ballybunion's is WAAAAY more than 1/3 of total revenues.
The UK/Ireland visitor play policy is a great win-win model when kept in balance.(and almost always is)
No doubt MANY/most UK/Ireland clubs would like to INCREASE their visitor play.

But at Ballybunion/Tralee it seems the visitor play is driving the bus far to the excess-and no doubt the more revenue the more beast feeding infrastructure gets built.
never understand why members would be unable to consistently access their own course. I mean would you join if it was free but you were never allowed to play ?
The times I've been to Bballybunion it's not a place I would ever consider joining, no matter how good the venue.
there comes a point when enough is enough.
there are plenty of clubs in the UK/Ireland with very reasonable joining fees and dues that have a LOT less to minimal visitior play, yet somehow they soldier on.

Jeff

"We" as in my club. 

It seems to me that in the past five years a great many more clubs are opening up for more visitor times.  Weekends are no longer a no go zone like when I first started coming to GB&I. 

Every club has its reasons for its visitor policy.  Ballybunion may be saving up a war chest for hard times...they have been known to have problems with their near neighbour. I know we have debt to service.  I think a great many clubs need visitor money just to get by.  Very few are rolling in cash.  I would be surprised if there are many clubs with £100,000 cash once debts are accounted for.   

Many/most clubs want to increase the visitor money without more visitors.  The green fee is a very line.  I do notice that 2015 some Irish & Scottish clubs are on the green fee hiking wagon again.  A brief look reveals

Lahinch up 15 Euro
Prestwick up £20
TOC up £10
Sligo up 30 Euro
The Island up 25 Euro
Portstewart up £10
Royal Aberdeen up £16

In all the madness I notice Princes is down to £60 M-Thurs for high season 2015.  So far, I am not seeing a lot of price hiking in England. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Wait till you see the Enniscrone price hike, Sean...

[Paul_Turner]

Sean  Those prices are outrageous, is golf tourism starting to wreck the game.  T Doak points out in the new CG how it has got so expensive and any of us who've toured for a long time can remember 15-20 quid fees at those courses.

[Brent Hutto]

In all the madness I notice Princes is down to £60 M-Thurs for high season 2015.  So far, I am not seeing a lot of price hiking in England. 

I like Princes a lot, although it's a definite notch below Royal Cinque Ports and a notch-and-a-half below Royal St. Georges in my estimation. But I'd really love to see them succeed in putting down a marker for excellent links golf at a tolerable price. In season we're probably looking at 2x Princes price for Deal and closer to 3x for Sandwich, right?

For my part, going forward I'm not sure how many more 100 quid and up rounds of golf I foresee playing if and when I can make future UK trips. The genuinely affordable options tend to get buried under the flood of huge green fees for "name" courses but they seem to still be out there. It's a commentary on green fee inflation over the past couple decades that around US$100 for a round of golf seems almost a bargain proposition.

[Mark Chaplin]

That appears to be quite a drop at Princes, just hope it's not related to cash flow and future conditioning.

Ballybunion may just get busy over the Christmas period with members so have no space for visitors. Royal West Norfolk doesn't accept visitors in August for that very reason.

[Paul Gray]

The feeling of hitting off crisp links turf on a crisp winter day is one our members will no longer experience.   

The mats were a major reason why I resigned membership of Pennard.  So far as I am concerned, winter is the golf season and to not be able to play off the fairway is a serious drag.  Even so, I often move my ball to the rough if I am fairly close to the edge of the fairway.  Last week it cost me on a few approaches bouncing through the greens...what a joy to see   

I think going forward it may be wise for many clubs not to offer a winter rate.  Courses can't take the beating 12 months a year.

Ciao

Well said.

Now would you all please go quiet on the subject before the wizard team at Hayling get ideas about mats. 

[Sean_A]

That appears to be quite a drop at Princes, just hope it's not related to cash flow and future conditioning.

Chappers, it is quite surprising.  There must be some sort of plan.  When you call the place they are constantly trying to organize a package...thats a bit annoying.  But I must say if one gets a decent deal, The Lodge is an excellent place to stay for a night, maybe two if one has no ambition to hit a pub or different restaurant.  The accommodation is close enough to spill drinks on the course.

Ally

Every year I strike courses off my replay list.  Its a sad reality, but the posher/famous clubs of GB&I are pricing out locals and many other Brits.  I am still wondering when the buses are going to hit English courses.  For golfers who don't want courses crowded with touristas England is a far better bet than Scotland or Ireland...so at least your green fee buys a little peace and quiet. 

Ciao  

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