[Gary Sato]

With David Kidd winning the position at Sand Valley, it might be interesting to look at his portfolio.

Mike Keiser stated that he didn't like much of his recent work which must mean the Castle course, possibly Tetherow, Machrihanish Dunes and possibly TPC Stonebrae which was a very difficult piece of property.

From the DMK website,

Bandon Dunes
Queenwood Golf Club
Powerscourt Golf Club
Nanea Golf Club
Fancourt Hotel & Country Club Estate
TPC San Francisco Bay at Stonebrae
St. Andrews Links Castle Course
Tetherow Golf Course
Huntsman Springs
Machrihanish Dunes
Laucala Island Golf Course
Gamble Sands
Guacalito de La Isla

Under Construction
Comporta Dunes (in Portugal and looks fantastic).

Your thoughts on any?

[PCCraig]

I think Bandon Dunes is about as underrated as a Top 100 course can be. Other than the one inland par-5 on the back with the pond in play I think it's a really really good golf course. Some of the holes on Bandon are simply world class.

I've also played Huntsman Springs in Idaho. Candidly, I wasn't expecting much after looking at photos other have posted on here, but I thought it was a really neat and well done golf course given the limitations of the land (even if the surrounding views of the Tetons are incredible). The course has what I would think most posters here would really enjoy: wide fairways featuring strategic decision making off of the tee and some really wild greens.

While I haven't been, a couple of friends who's judgement in golf courses I trust have played Nanea and rave about it. 

[Garland Bayley]

I get a chuckle when I think of his quote about Tetherow, that being a poorer player he made Tetherow a forgiving course. Say what? If your understanding of forgiveness is that poor, then perhaps you need to study a little more.

[David_Tepper]

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/12/3/the-kidd-is-back-keiser-names-architect-for-sand-valley-cour.html

[Chris DeToro]

Having only played Bandon Dunes, I can't speak much about the rest of Kidd's work, but I found the course to be phenomenal and agree with the underrated nature of the course (despite it being pretty highly regarded as is)

[John Cowden]

Bandon Dunes is indeed a phenomenal design.  Indeed, it was even more so in 1999-2001 before the resort began mowing the fescue framing the fairways and eradicating the gorse that "hid" the holes one from another.

[Steve Lapper]

I get a chuckle when I think of his quote about Tetherow, that being a poorer player he made Tetherow a forgiving course. Say what? If your understanding of forgiveness is that poor, then perhaps you need to study a little more.

GJ,

  I've played a few rounds with David and he's far from a poor golfer. His golf course architecture intellect (inc. his ability to grasp forgiveness) greatly exceeds most of us posting on GCA. He's admitted to building a few questionable holes and has taken on some sites that had little chance to yield greatness. Ultimately, he's revealed how his philosophies have evolved. Your statement might suggest that perhaps you need to study a little more?

[Joel_Stewart]

While I haven't been, a couple of friends who's judgement in golf courses I trust have played Nanea and rave about it. 

I have a friend who has an excellent eye and played most of the US and world top 100 who just came back from Nanea.  He called it exceptional!

The numerous site lines off the tee and the variety of options playing to the greens are unlimited.  He also said it was possibly the best conditioned course he's ever seen.

[Garland Bayley]

I get a chuckle when I think of his quote about Tetherow, that being a poorer player he made Tetherow a forgiving course. Say what? If your understanding of forgiveness is that poor, then perhaps you need to study a little more.

GJ,

  I've played a few rounds with David and he's far from a poor golfer. His golf course architecture intellect (inc. his ability to grasp forgiveness) greatly exceeds most of us posting on GCA. He's admitted to building a few questionable holes and has taken on some sites that had little chance to yield greatness. Ultimately, he's revealed how his philosophies have evolved. Your statement might suggest that perhaps you need to study a little more?

So you have played golf with David? Ask me if I care!

You are defending him from his own statement with "he's far from a poor golfer"? I've got news for you, I'm far from a poor golfer too. But then, my paraphrase of his words did not say he was a poor golfer.

It has been reported here that by his own admission he had learned from past mistakes (e.g., Tetherow and Castle Course among others), and reformed his practices to create Gamble Sands. Since he made the statement about Tetherow when he created it, perhaps his ability to grasp forgiveness was a bit underwhelming at that time.

Maybe next time you play with him you can ask him for a dissertation about the forgiveness of mohawks and eyebrows (his great innovation for Tetherow).

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

Don't sell yourself short. You are a VERY poor golfer.... 

[Howard Riefs]

Here's a good Golfweek article from a few months ago about the "transformation" of Kidd's career with Gamble Sands:

http://golfweek.com/news/2014/aug/01/gamble-sands-david-mclay-kidd-playability-washingt/?Travel

As it pertains to Keiser's perspective, the article notes:

Keiser, the man who had launched Kidd’s career, had a decidedly negative reaction upon visiting The Castle.“He put hummocks in the middle of the fairways that were blind on the tee shots, and greens that defied playability to the average golfer. Those two things disappointed me greatly,”Keiser says. “So many people (thought) if he did Bandon Dunes, with its very puttable greens, that’s part of what you get from David Kidd, and he went off and did those crazy greens."

[Steve Lapper]

I get a chuckle when I think of his quote about Tetherow, that being a poorer player he made Tetherow a forgiving course. Say what? If your understanding of forgiveness is that poor, then perhaps you need to study a little more.

GJ,

  I've played a few rounds with David and he's far from a poor golfer. His golf course architecture intellect (inc. his ability to grasp forgiveness) greatly exceeds most of us posting on GCA. He's admitted to building a few questionable holes and has taken on some sites that had little chance to yield greatness. Ultimately, he's revealed how his philosophies have evolved. Your statement might suggest that perhaps you need to study a little more?

So you have played golf with David? Ask me if I care!

You are defending him from his own statement with "he's far from a poor golfer"? I've got news for you, I'm far from a poor golfer too. But then, my paraphrase of his words did not say he was a poor golfer.

It has been reported here that by his own admission he had learned from past mistakes (e.g., Tetherow and Castle Course among others), and reformed his practices to create Gamble Sands. Since he made the statement about Tetherow when he created it, perhaps his ability to grasp forgiveness was a bit underwhelming at that time.

Maybe next time you play with him you can ask him for a dissertation about the forgiveness of mohawks and eyebrows (his great innovation for Tetherow).

You are right...I don't care if you care .

I simply mentioned it to indicate that I knew the man personally and have spent considerable time with him on a course...not reading, reciting, and regurgitating on a past quote of his, isolated and taken out of context.

As for the mohawks and eyebrows, I'm sure he'd be the first to say they were aesthetic experiments gone bad. They haven't reappeared at Gamble Sands or Guacalito so I suspect he's moved on and, without your concern, "studied a little more."

[Tim Passalacqua]

Tetherow is no mistake.  I can't believe I am reading this.  It is an incredible visual course.  The visual stimulation is unbelievable.  Your brain goes into overdrive.  One of the coolest inland designs I have seen.  Kidd is a master of deception.  Tetherow looks much harder than it is.  After one play, the scores drop significantly.  Plenty of width with great angles.  Every hole is different and exciting.  It is super firm with wall to wall fescue.  Speed slots, sideboards, backboards.....sounds like fun to me!!!  The greens are wild, but they keep them at a very manageable speed.  The course is just fun to play.  If it were a great walking course, it would be toward the very top of my list.

[Michael Essig]

Keiser's quote is something I totally agree with.  

I have played Bandon, Castle and Gamble Sands.  Honestly, it is hard to believe they came from the same designer, maybe because Castle is on the list.  My dislike of Castle has been stated on this website and I won't bore everyone by repeating myself.  

But I loved Bandon Dunes the first time I played it 10 or so years ago, and I have loved it the 4 or 5 additional times I have played it since.  

Last summer, I played Gamble Sands twice, and loved it each time.  Granted, I wished GS was a little more difficult, but it is just fine as is.  As a result of its forgiveness, my wife absolutely loved it.  The fact that I traveled 2.5 hours each way to play it twice in the span of a few months , when I have the option of choosing two golf courses I didn't have to pay to play within a few minutes of my home, says something about its quality.  And I look forward to going back next year.  

He has stated publicly that GS was a reaction to his mistakes, so let's hope he continues building on GS, and he has left his Castle mistake in the past.

PS  Hopefully Tom and Rod will get their opportunities also.

[Adam Lawrence]

Here's a good Golfweek article from a few months ago about the "transformation" of Kidd's career with Gamble Sands:

http://golfweek.com/news/2014/aug/01/gamble-sands-david-mclay-kidd-playability-washingt/?Travel

As it pertains to Keiser's perspective, the article notes:

Keiser, the man who had launched Kidd’s career, had a decidedly negative reaction upon visiting The Castle.“He put hummocks in the middle of the fairways that were blind on the tee shots, and greens that defied playability to the average golfer. Those two things disappointed me greatly,”Keiser says. “So many people (thought) if he did Bandon Dunes, with its very puttable greens, that’s part of what you get from David Kidd, and he went off and did those crazy greens."

It isn't just Gamble. Guacalito in Nicaragua, which opened at the start of last year, is 'new David'. Very playable, visually appealing, lots of fun shots. If they ever get Comporta finished it'll be along the same lines.

[Philip Gawith]

Beaverbrook in Surrey, England (with input also from Tom Watson) is under construction and will likely open summer 2016. It is a fabulous piece of land and will likely be the best course built in England for many years.

Philip

[Garland Bayley]

Tetherow is no mistake.  I can't believe I am reading this.  It is an incredible visual course.  The visual stimulation is unbelievable.  Your brain goes into overdrive.  One of the coolest inland designs I have seen.  Kidd is a master of deception.  Tetherow looks much harder than it is.  After one play, the scores drop significantly.  Plenty of width with great angles.  Every hole is different and exciting.  It is super firm with wall to wall fescue.  Speed slots, sideboards, backboards.....sounds like fun to me!!!  The greens are wild, but they keep them at a very manageable speed.  The course is just fun to play.  If it were a great walking course, it would be toward the very top of my list.

I have not been back since the year it opened. Since you don't mention mohawks and eyebrows, perhaps you have not had the chance to experience them.

[David Davis]

Bandon is great of course, it's certainly in my top 4 courses at Bandon Dunes 

Queenwood is also enjoyable. I would call it a hybrid, parkland heathland course on a nice property with a pretty fun and playable routing. The greens were in great shape, perhaps even the best condition I've seen in the UK which says a lot. I wouldn't call the shaping too radical but there was plenty of undulations on the greens and definitely some pretty fun/crazy putts if you putt your approach in the wrong area of the green but I don't mind that at all. I wouldn't call it great but it's certainly a far cry from the Castle Course.

Look forward to seeing Gamble Sands and maybe Tetherow on a trip home in the coming years.

BS what's your take on Queenwood or did you already share that at some point?

[Sean_A]

I wouldn't call it great but it's certainly a far cry from the Castle Course.

David, what is the issue with Castle Course? 

The more I think on it, the more I believe that if Trump Aberdeen is awesome, the Castle Course can't be far behind.  These courses have a lot in common.  In fact, I would say the biggest difference by far is the turf...and of course Trump chose not to take advantage of this.  If 3, 4 or 5 greens could be made more approachable, the Castle Course would be a stunner...again, except for the biggest problem of iffy drainage.

Ciao

[Tim Leahy]

TPC Stonebrae had great views but not any memorable holes.  Built around a side of a hill it was a tough property but had the feel of an average public course.

[Adam Lawrence]

Beaverbrook is a significantly better property than Queenwood imo. I have a couple of architect friends who've seen the site and come back cursing that they didn't get the opportunity to pitch for the job. I'm expecting pretty big things from it.

Cammy McMillan keeps Queenwood in remarkable condition. The biggest problem, in my experience, has been the greens being kept too fast for their contours.

[David Davis]

I wouldn't call it great but it's certainly a far cry from the Castle Course.

David, what is the issue with Castle Course? 

The more I think on it, the more I believe that if Trump Aberdeen is awesome, the Castle Course can't be far behind.  These courses have a lot in common.  In fact, I would say the biggest difference by far is the turf...and of course Trump chose not to take advantage of this.  If 3, 4 or 5 greens could be made more approachable, the Castle Course would be a stunner...again, except for the biggest problem of iffy drainage.

Ciao

Sean,

I have no issue with it at all yet. I've only walked part of it 6 months from opening. My statement "a far cry from" means it's simply a completely different experience for me. I'd love to play the Castle Course and will. I've also not played Trumps course so you've got me there too and I can't argue with your statement. I tend to like wild greens quite a lot and love putting so maybe just maybe I will love the Castle Course when I play it.

[Sean_A]

David

There are a few rather unruly greens at Castle, but for the most part, its getting on them that is the challenge.  Very much like Trump Aberdeen, there is a small window where bouncing approaches work...otherwise its an aerial fest that can get quickly out of hand with a decent wind about. As J Kirk would say, the greens should accommodate that shot    And....the problem is increased due to elevation changes.  The odd thing is, if players are good enough to use the very limited ground options, they are likely good enough for the aerial options.  Bottom line, the margin of error is too fine on both courses. At Aberdeen it is somewhat understandable because there was the intention of getting flat bellies on the course.  Yet, Trump Aberdeen is heralded and Castle is lambasted...I can't get my head around the disparity of opinion from a handicap player PoV.  That said, I don't think the Castle is too far off something special from a design PoV...in a positive sense   

Ciao

[Philip Gawith]

What don't you like about the water at Queenwood Brian? As I recall it only comes into play on 5 ( a bit), 6 ( a lot) and 16. I think 5 and 16 are excellent holes which ask a lot of the golfer.

I don't like the way the greens are set up - too much heavy-handed internal undulation, with too much speed in the greens for the amount of undulation. It always feels as if the course (certainly the greens) are set up to indulge the 15 or so top professionals who are members in one way or another, rather than for more "normal" golfers. That said, I have not heard members make this complaint, and there is no doubt that the course is always a pleasure to play and probably the best conditioned course in England.

My other beefs at Queenwood concern the 15th - the greenside bunker needs to be moved 20 yards further back so that amateurs hitting from 220 yards have a chance of going for the green ( as opposed to Adam Scott hitting a 5 iron); and the 3rd - they need to make it a proper short par 4 which tempts a long-hitter to go for it. At the moment it is a dull 3 iron + wedge.

I agree with Adam that Beaverbrook is a better site than Queenwood so much to look forward to.

[Mark_Fine]

Nanea is truly exceptional!  I have played it several times (latest was three weeks ago).  I called it "Sand Hills in a lava flow"!  Absolutely one of the top courses in the world. 

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