Rules Question

[Mark Woodger]

What happens in this instance?

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/1101F999251151244835647578112_1f231a4c550.3.4.mp4?versionId=Z2RJ0e_4p.S0H7rIzo1_.1ggC_aBF0Ow

For those who can't see the video, a player is 5 feet behind ball. takes a practice swing and takes a divot that hits the ball and knocks it forwards a few feet. What doe sthe player do?

[Bill_McBride]

Replace with no penalty would be my thought. 

[Chris DeToro]

I believe it's a one-shot penalty as well because the player caused the ball to move.  Rule 18-2

[John Kavanaugh]

What a douche. Obviously not his home course.

[Greg Taylor]

one shot penalty, replace the ball

failure to replace the ball leads to a two shot penalty....

[Greg Taylor]

In fact got curious, this answers your question, and it appears Justin Rose and TW have had the same issue:

http://www.aussiegolfer.net/justin-roses-practice-swing-divot-moves-his-golf-ball-video/

[Paul Jones]

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-18/

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment

a. General

Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:

• lifts or moves the ball,

• touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or

• causes the ball to move, or

(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

If the ball is moved, it must be replaced...

[Lou_Duran]

Don't ever bet Paul Jones on a rules question.  Take your stroke and play on.

[Paul Jones]

Don't ever bet Paul Jones on a rules question.  Take your stroke and play on.

Lou and I had a rule question and both agreed we would have to bring Chris Cupit in for the final verdict :-).

[Lou_Duran]

We only bring in The Guru in for the heavy stuff.  Besides, the cost of a cold beer is a bargain for good company.

Since we've already resolved this pretty routine question, I'd like to divert the topic to the practical application of the rules for club events.

Scenario:

Playing in a club championship, a fellow competitor grounds his club besides his ball causing it to roll down the hill a couple revolutions.  Without missing a beat or coming out of his stance, he just hits the ball from the new location, two putts and reports his score to his marker without adding the two penalty strokes.  His marker, a longtime member and friend, clearly saw the ball move but wrote down the reported score.

A third player in the group also saw the ball move.  He is a new member, didn't know his fellow competitors and did not contest the erroneous score.  Under the rules, he has a responsibility to protect the field.  In practice, he decides "not to rock the boat" as the fellow competitor didn't gain an advantage and he, ahead by a couple strokes and likely to win his flight, is theoretically most harmed by overlooking the rules infraction.

Questions:

Did the third player who was not the offending golfer's marker do the practical thing?  Or should the rules be sacrosanct and all three players disqualified?  How many of us would have recommended to the fellow competitor after he hit from the wrong place to either add two strokes to his score or play a second ball under 3-3?   

[Paul Jones]

Lou,

This actually happen to me a couple of time before in a member/guest and four ball tournaments.  

If the player did not know the rules and he is not in contention, I will say something after the hole that you might want to check the rules on that one and leave it at that.

If a player is in contention, I try to warn them before making a rules infraction if there is time (i.e. his ball rolled off the green).  I never tell them the exact rule, I will say "I think..." if there is no time, then I will say "lets check before posting with Rules Official or Pro..."

If the player is just knowingly cheating, then I will say something to him in front of the rest of the group. However, if I am a guest then I will tell the member my thoughts and let him decide what to do.

[Mark Woodger]

thank you for the responses.

taking a slightly different scenario. in matchplay. i take a practice swing, not addressing the ball and I take a divot that hits and moves the opps ball. is that loss of hole or do you just replace the ball?

[Lou_Duran]

18-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play

a. During Search

If, during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

b. Other Than During Search

If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

[John Kavanaugh]

We only bring in The Guru in for the heavy stuff.  Besides, the cost of a cold beer is a bargain for good company.

Since we've already resolved this pretty routine question, I'd like to divert the topic to the practical application of the rules for club events.

Scenario:

Playing in a club championship, a fellow competitor grounds his club besides his ball causing it to roll down the hill a couple revolutions.  Without missing a beat or coming out of his stance, he just hits the ball from the new location, two putts and reports his score to his marker without adding the two penalty strokes.  His marker, a longtime member and friend, clearly saw the ball move but wrote down the reported score.

A third player in the group also saw the ball move.  He is a new member, didn't know his fellow competitors and did not contest the erroneous score.  Under the rules, he has a responsibility to protect the field.  In practice, he decides "not to rock the boat" as the fellow competitor didn't gain an advantage and he, ahead by a couple strokes and likely to win his flight, is theoretically most harmed by overlooking the rules infraction.

Questions:

Did the third player who was not the offending golfer's marker do the practical thing?  Or should the rules be sacrosanct and all three players disqualified?  How many of us would have recommended to the fellow competitor after he hit from the wrong place to either add two strokes to his score or play a second ball under 3-3?   

This is why the rules of golf are broken beyond repair.  I will call a penalty every time with zero regard to where they stand in a tournament, which is exactly why I don't play in stroke play tournaments.  I can not see the equity in forcing my group to play at a higher standard than 95% of the other groups participating.

[Tony_Muldoon]

We only bring in The Guru in for the heavy stuff.  Besides, the cost of a cold beer is a bargain for good company.

Since we've already resolved this pretty routine question, I'd like to divert the topic to the practical application of the rules for club events.

Scenario:

Playing in a club championship, a fellow competitor grounds his club besides his ball causing it to roll down the hill a couple revolutions.  Without missing a beat or coming out of his stance, he just hits the ball from the new location, two putts and reports his score to his marker without adding the two penalty strokes.  His marker, a longtime member and friend, clearly saw the ball move but wrote down the reported score.

A third player in the group also saw the ball move.  He is a new member, didn't know his fellow competitors and did not contest the erroneous score.  Under the rules, he has a responsibility to protect the field.  In practice, he decides "not to rock the boat" as the fellow competitor didn't gain an advantage and he, ahead by a couple strokes and likely to win his flight, is theoretically most harmed by overlooking the rules infraction.

Questions:

Did the third player who was not the offending golfer's marker do the practical thing?  Or should the rules be sacrosanct and all three players disqualified?  How many of us would have recommended to the fellow competitor after he hit from the wrong place to either add two strokes to his score or play a second ball under 3-3?   

This is why the rules of golf are broken beyond repair.  I will call a penalty every time with zero regard to where they stand in a tournament, which is exactly why I don't play in stroke play tournaments.  I can not see the equity in forcing my group to play at a higher standard than 95% of the other groups participating.

Agreed. 


In GB&I there is no way to avoid strokeplay tournaments if you want a current handicap. I doubt the incidence of speaking up, as per the above example, is any different than in the USA.

[David Ober]

We only bring in The Guru in for the heavy stuff.  Besides, the cost of a cold beer is a bargain for good company.

Since we've already resolved this pretty routine question, I'd like to divert the topic to the practical application of the rules for club events.

Scenario:

Playing in a club championship, a fellow competitor grounds his club besides his ball causing it to roll down the hill a couple revolutions.  Without missing a beat or coming out of his stance, he just hits the ball from the new location, two putts and reports his score to his marker without adding the two penalty strokes.  His marker, a longtime member and friend, clearly saw the ball move but wrote down the reported score.

A third player in the group also saw the ball move.  He is a new member, didn't know his fellow competitors and did not contest the erroneous score.  Under the rules, he has a responsibility to protect the field.  In practice, he decides "not to rock the boat" as the fellow competitor didn't gain an advantage and he, ahead by a couple strokes and likely to win his flight, is theoretically most harmed by overlooking the rules infraction.

Questions:

Did the third player who was not the offending golfer's marker do the practical thing?  Or should the rules be sacrosanct and all three players disqualified?  How many of us would have recommended to the fellow competitor after he hit from the wrong place to either add two strokes to his score or play a second ball under 3-3?   

This is why the rules of golf are broken beyond repair.  I will call a penalty every time with zero regard to where they stand in a tournament, which is exactly why I don't play in stroke play tournaments.  I can not see the equity in forcing my group to play at a higher standard than 95% of the other groups participating.

I may be mistaken, but there is no necessity that the player deem that he made the ball move in that instance. If you. You are only deemed to have moved your ball if you address the ball and it moves (other than by wind, in which case you are not penalized).

So, if you ground your club next to your ball, you have not "addressed" the ball per the rules of golf. So in this instance, if you set your club on the ground near your ball and it moves, you are not necessarily deemed to have moved it.

At least that's my understanding of that rule....

[John Kavanaugh]

We only bring in The Guru in for the heavy stuff.  Besides, the cost of a cold beer is a bargain for good company.

Since we've already resolved this pretty routine question, I'd like to divert the topic to the practical application of the rules for club events.

Scenario:

Playing in a club championship, a fellow competitor grounds his club besides his ball causing it to roll down the hill a couple revolutions.  Without missing a beat or coming out of his stance, he just hits the ball from the new location, two putts and reports his score to his marker without adding the two penalty strokes.  His marker, a longtime member and friend, clearly saw the ball move but wrote down the reported score.

A third player in the group also saw the ball move.  He is a new member, didn't know his fellow competitors and did not contest the erroneous score.  Under the rules, he has a responsibility to protect the field.  In practice, he decides "not to rock the boat" as the fellow competitor didn't gain an advantage and he, ahead by a couple strokes and likely to win his flight, is theoretically most harmed by overlooking the rules infraction.

Questions:

Did the third player who was not the offending golfer's marker do the practical thing?  Or should the rules be sacrosanct and all three players disqualified?  How many of us would have recommended to the fellow competitor after he hit from the wrong place to either add two strokes to his score or play a second ball under 3-3?   

This is why the rules of golf are broken beyond repair.  I will call a penalty every time with zero regard to where they stand in a tournament, which is exactly why I don't play in stroke play tournaments.  I can not see the equity in forcing my group to play at a higher standard than 95% of the other groups participating.

I may be mistaken, but there is no necessity that the player deem that he made the ball move in that instance. If you. You are only deemed to have moved your ball if you address the ball and it moves (other than by wind, in which case you are not penalized).

So, if you ground your club next to your ball, you have not "addressed" the ball per the rules of golf. So in this instance, if you set your club on the ground near your ball and it moves, you are not necessarily deemed to have moved it.

At least that's my understanding of that rule....

Bullshit, but high level scratch golfer bullshit.

[JESII]

I don't think that's right...my understanding is that once you've touched anything within a club length of the ball you're deemed responsible if it moves.

[Andy Stamm]

My understanding is that to address the ball you must both take your stance and ground your club. So, if you just ground your club, you have not addressed the ball. But, the hypothetical specifically states that the player "grounds his club beside his ball causing it to roll..." That's a penalty, regardless of whether or not the ball has been addressed. Now, could you lie and say you didn't cause it, sure, but that's called cheating, and that's why there are other players.

[john_stiles]

My understanding is that  Jack Nicklaus  never grounded his club.   I cannot recall ever seeing him ground an iron, ie, always seem to hover the iron above the ground.   Not quite sure what he did when putting.   Never ground the club, no problem.  Obviously taking a stance in a bunker is addressing the ball.

The last part of the Rule provides for an exception:

"  If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke.

The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply.  "


The exception in the Rules probably provides an out in many situations.

[Bill_McBride]

So, back to the original rules question.....has anyone in authority actually said its a penalty if your practice swing divot from yards away moves your ball?   Surely there must be justice somewhere.....not only have you not addressed the ball, you aren't even near it. 

[John Kavanaugh]

So, back to the original rules question.....has anyone in authority actually said its a penalty if your practice swing divot from yards away moves your ball?   Surely there must be justice somewhere.....not only have you not addressed the ball, you aren't even near it. 

The justice lies in the fact that you took a divot with a practice swing. That in itself should be grounds for disqualification.

[Mark Pearce]

So, back to the original rules question.....has anyone in authority actually said its a penalty if your practice swing divot from yards away moves your ball?   Surely there must be justice somewhere.....not only have you not addressed the ball, you aren't even near it. 

But you were stupid enough to do so in such a way as to risk moving your ball.  The one shot penalty seems eminently just to me.

[Bill_McBride]

Harsh responses!

[Brent Hutto]

So, back to the original rules question.....has anyone in authority actually said its a penalty if your practice swing divot from yards away moves your ball?   Surely there must be justice somewhere.....not only have you not addressed the ball, you aren't even near it. 

The justice lies in the fact that you took a divot with a practice swing. That in itself should be grounds for disqualification.

Sounds about right to me.