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Tommy Naccarato

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Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« on: November 26, 2014, 02:22:58 PM »
By The Joe Burbeck Association!


Michael Felton

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 02:27:47 PM »
Wow - looks like that's mostly the red course. The total lack of trees around 9 through 13 is quite something. The 1st on Black doesn't look like it's even there! 18 Black looks like the bunkers are there but the green might be missing. Was this taken when the Black was being built?

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 02:37:31 PM »
Yes! From Vanderbilt Cup Races.

IIRC, I remember someone in the LI office of Golf Course Histories mentioning they had 1938 direct overheads from NARA. But people have seen that already, right?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Brian Finn

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 02:45:23 PM »
Incredible find.  Awesome.  

So, is this a late 1935 / early 1936 photo?  The (original) Blue Course and the Red Course look to be completed, as does the clubhouse, but the Black course is clearly still under construction.  Perhaps this was taken around the clubhouse dedication?  
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 02:53:17 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Joe Bausch

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 03:34:19 PM »
Is that aerial signed and dated by anyone?  Many people?!   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 04:07:39 PM »
Is that aerial signed and dated by anyone?  Many people?!   ;)

Too soon?   :)

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 04:16:37 PM »
The inscription on the back reads:

"To Robert Moses in appreciation of my design/build commission. All the best, Joseph Burbeck[signed]"
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 04:18:06 PM »
The inscription on the back reads:

"To Robert Moses in appreciation of my design/build commission. All the best, Joseph Burbeck[signed]"

You forgot 1901.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 04:20:33 PM »
I had completely forgot to mention that the Golf Course Histories staff had a lot to do with this, Apologies!  Its sort of like how Joe Burbeck is forgotten, no?  ;)

Mr. Bausch, I have it on good authority that Mr. Burbeck is the one that commissioned the Fairchild staff to go photograph the course. Anyone saying otherwise is a fraud and has been proven so!

Will Lozier

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2014, 06:58:31 PM »
Is there a polo match taking place?!

Cool!

Joe Bausch

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2014, 07:00:27 PM »
Is there a polo match taking place?!

Cool!


That is cool, eh?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 09:46:38 PM »
As for the Green course:

It doesn't look like the third and fourth holes were a part of the old Dev Emmet Lenox Hill Course, which I had thought was the case.

Have I just missed this most obvious fact?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2014, 09:04:44 AM »
I recall a decent size aerial in the clubhouse of the Black. Unsure of the vintage.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 09:14:31 AM »
I recall a decent size aerial in the clubhouse of the Black. Unsure of the vintage.

If anyone has a link to the one Jonathan mentioned, I'd appreciate it. I spent a bit of time looking at it last time I was there.

Craig Disher

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2014, 10:34:14 AM »
The photo definitely predates 1938. Two aerial sets exist from 1938 and 1940 and in both the course is complete. By 1938 Small trees had been planted along the left side of the 1st fairway. In the photo - no trees yet.

Phil Young

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2014, 11:33:11 AM »
The photograph was taken on August 25, 1935. The polo field is where it was since play began when the park opened in 1932. If you look to the extreme right side of the photograph you'll see a large white triangular area of sand. That is the new polo field complex under construction. Polo would be played there until the fall.

Kyle, The Lenox Hills course was redesigned and re-routed. Every hole had changes made and a good number of them were redone. It would re-open for play in 1936 along with the Black.

Brian, the Blue course opened for play on April 28, 1935 and the Red course a month later on Decoration Day, May 27, 1935.  

Michael, Although the 1st holes of both the Black & Green courses had yet to be finished because of the polo field, the greens for both can be seen. Of note is the size of all the greens in the photograph. Everyone is much larger than all but a few realize they had been originally designed. For example, the greens on today's Black course at least 30% smaller than what they originally were.

The "Reef hole" on the blue is the hole at the top of the photo. The tee is in the horseshoe-shaped trees with the fairway extending down and to the lower left. The dark patch is the retention pond that was left of the fairway of this drivable 300-yard par-4 with the green further down to the left of the small grove of trees.

Most also don't realize that with the exception of where the polo field was the areas in which the Black, Blue & Red courses were built were all forest. You can get a hint at just how much forest was removed to create all three courses by considering the holes which have trees bordering them on both sides. The saw mill which cut all the trees taken down and from which was provided the lumber to build the clubhouse and every other building and piece of wood furnishings in the entire park, as well as producing wood for sale to others, was located near where the maintenance buildings would be.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 12:33:00 PM by Phil Young »

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2014, 09:36:24 AM »
This is fantastic. How were fairways and rough maintained back then? The height looks completely uniform on that stretch of Red 8-15.

Phil, could you talk a little bit about the evolution of the 13th hole on Red? It's something that's always fascinated me.

1. Was there a tee back in the corner of the trees, to the side of the 12th green?
2. Did the hole play out left to a shared fairway with 11?
3. Did the current right side fairway only come about after trees were added down the left?
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Phil Young

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2014, 08:42:07 AM »
Mark,

Because of the austere financial situation at the park which was brought about by WW II and the drastic reduction in rounds played due to so many young men joining the military, the condition and even the architecture of all 4 of the courses park would greatly suffer for many, many decades into the future. It became most serious in 1942 when the State closed down the Blue & Black courses for the duration of the war, not even cutting the grass until they decided to re-open them after peace was reached in 1945. As a result, many mowing patterns which had been adopted as a means of budget savings were continued. This included a drastic reduction in the sizes of all the greens. Take a careful look at the size of the putting surfaces on the Red in the aerial, especially comparing how tight the bunkers were to them, and you can appreciate just how much those maintenance practices shrunk the greens. Even today the putting surfaces in relation to the bunkers on the Red course are still too far away and the greens need expanding. There are also bunkers that are completely ‘rough-locked’ and which were originally at least partly in the fairways.

With that context established, and before answering your questions, consider the actual plan of development for the park and its golf courses:


You have 3 questions:
1.   Was there a tee back in the corner of the trees, to the side of the 12th green?
2.   Did the hole play out left to a shared fairway with 11?
3.   Did the current right side fairway only come about after trees were added down the left?

To best answer that question take a look at a close-up of the original design of the hole as shown on the development plan:


As you can see the hole was never designed to have to fairways split by a central large hazard. In fact, there were originally two large hazards which were typical of what we find designed and built throughout all of the 4 courses. You can also see, in answer to your 2nd question, that there was a rather large area of rough which separated the 11th & 13th fairways and that they were separate and distinct from each other.

There were 2 tee boxes including one that was much closer to the green and a bit further back than the one that is used today. What few realize though is that Tilly designed the hole with the idea of having the better player challenge both hazards in order to have the best angle of play into the green. Note the line of play that he drew in and how shots from both tees would have to either carry or skirt the edge of the left bunker complex to find the preferred landing area. Also, note that the lesser player who would play to the larger and more open section on the right side of the fairway would many times mean a lay-up short of the green for the 2nd shot as they wouldn’t want to challenge the right green-side bunker. The large second hazard would also challenge the long-driver off the tee.

Further careful examining of that larger second hazard and one can see an almost Reef-like/Hell’s Half-Acre design amalgamation to it in the way it angles from lower right to upper left sides of the fairway and in its size.

Yes, in answer to your 3rd question, the right side was expanded after the trees were planted in the left rough to serve as a safety feature for wayward tee shots that were finding their way onto the 11th fairway and into those playing that hole.

One other very important point which was not mentioned. This photograph can be found on the Vanderbilt Cup Races blog created by Town of North Hempstead Historian, Howard Kroplick. The website can be seen here: http://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/ Also on this site you'll see that this isn't the only Bethpage aerial and that there are aerials of other New York City/Long Island golf courses including Tilly's Fresh Meadows which was his first design to host two major championships and that is no longer in existence. In addition, Long Islander Phil Carlucci, who is currently working on a coffee table book about Long island golf courses which should be out next spring, shared this photo with me and asked me for information about what it was actually showing and how to date it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 09:02:35 AM by Phil Young »

Craig Disher

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2014, 11:23:28 AM »
The site does have some interesting incidental views. The original North Hills CC - chopped up in the 1960s for the current Douglaston GC - can be seen in this photo:



And this one of the Eisenhower Park Red:

« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 11:38:50 AM by Craig Disher »

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2014, 04:01:32 PM »
Thanks for that detailed response, Phil, and for reminding me of the development plan drawings. They also show that #1 Black was originally supposed to have bunkering along the inside of the dogleg. Do you know when/why that idea was dropped?

 
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Phil Young

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2014, 05:32:34 PM »
Mark,

The bunker on the right side of the Black's 1st fairway was actually the 2nd iteration in the design. Originally the plans called for a large retention pond that would run from the1st hole of the Red along the base of the hill in front of the 18th green of the Black and across the 1st fairways of both the Black and Green courses.

It was decided early on that it was both too expensive and impractical and so the development plan, which was the final version, shows the large bunker on Black's 1st hole. This was never put in because it was felt that trees would provide more protection for those playing the 1st hole of the Green course. In addition, I believe that time also had something to do with it. The Black course, which was originally to be opened in May 1935, was delayed because despite the large numbers of men working on the project, it fell behind time-wise. Numerous areas weren't ready for the official opening day of the Clubhouse in 1935 including the Black & Green courses, the polo field with barns and pavilions, the baseball and football fields with planned stadiums to follow and more. Because the polo fields were delayed the Black course was unable to be used for the 1936 USGA Publinx tournament which was a bit ironic as the reason that Bethpage was awarded it instead of Rochester's Durand-Eastman new RTJ Sr. public course was because of the Black's reputation for what it would be simply in the design stage. I have often wondered whether it would have been used for Amateur's and Opens after WW II if it had hosted the Publinx. It certainly would have been far better known.

I also realize that I left out a bit of information regarding the rough on Red 13. The aerial photo we're discussing was taken just a few months after the course opened for play. The fairways/rough were still being grown in. The rough would become longer than what is seen in this photo the following year when it was grown a bit heavy for the Publinx championship and the fairways became quite well defined (the Red substituting for the Black course).
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 05:41:19 PM by Phil Young »

Pete Blaisdell

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2014, 09:15:41 AM »
Tommy

  Great find!!

  Have never seen this . One of our officials mentioned its existence at the last National Open conducted at the Black but I never followed up on it.

  Thanks for sharing. Love these old time aerials!!
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 12:38:14 PM »
When AWT built these bunkers...



after having recently built these...




...what was he thinking - he went from clean to amoebic?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015, 11:12:37 PM »
Looking again at this fantastic aerial, one thing I just noticed is how much more #16 Red used to dogleg to the right. The original green sat where #18 Blue fairway ends today. That helps explain why the trees on the left in the current version creep in so much.

I think I prefer how it is now. It seems like trees were far too much in play in the original version. It also doesn't seem like you could get home in two, something you could attempt today after a perfect drive. It's still an extremely difficult shot, especially from the left side of the fairway, but at least the option is there. I also think the current green is one of the best at the entire complex.

Here's an aerial from 1953:



Here it is in 2006:



Here it is combined:




I've also always been interested in how the fairway on #10 Black changed with the RJ renovation. It looks to have lost up to 10 yards on the left and as many as 15-20 yards on the right (with the addition of a new bunker).

Phil Young probably knows the exact measurements, but via google earth the landing zone at 250 yards from the middle tees used to be at least 50 yards wide, and could have been as much as 60-65 yards at its widest point. Now it's 25 yards wide.

1953/2001:



The split view really shows the narrowing caused by the new bunker on the right side:

« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 12:39:09 AM by Mark Fedeli »
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Magnificent Bethpage Aerial Found!
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2015, 05:37:47 AM »
Mark, Those photos are enlightening, although the "combined" view doesn't seem to work on my machine.

RE.: #16-It did seem a hard dogleg right, but it also appears that the inside corner was not shrouded in trees. Get rid of the trees and you have the risk and reward of an ideal hard dogleg.
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