Ranking of DJR courses in upstate NY

[John Blain]

As many of you know Ross built a number of fine golf courses in upstate NY. I am just curious how those who have played them would rank them from top to bottom. Also which is the most overrated and conversely the most underrated?

Bellevue CC
Brook-Lea CC
CC of Buffalo
CC of Rochester
Glens Falls CC
Irondequoit CC
Mark Twain GC
Monroe GC
Oak Hill CC (East)
Oak Hill CC (West)
Sagamore Resort & GC
Teugega CC

[Matt Bielawa]

Of the ones I've played:

Oak Hill East is the hardest of the bunch.  Of course the discussion group is well aware of how the course has strayed away from much of it's original look due largely to tree planting and some new holes that weren't on the Ross routing.

I've always liked CCR...a really good set of Par 3's and some fun holes (I love #15).  Definitely very tight due to tree coverage, though I haven't seen it since the renovation a few years back.

Monroe would please the Ross purist the most.  Very good course and great sandy soil there too.

I'd call Irondequoit the most under-rated of the group.  The front nine has some quirk and is on a very interesting plot of land.  The back nine is more typical Ross and plenty tough.

I've never seen CCB or Brook-Lea unfortunately.

[Ronald Montesano]

What is it about Monroe's location that gives it sandier soil than the others?

[Matt Bielawa]

I really don't know, especially since the four courses I mentioned are only a few miles apart.  Maybe I'm imagining the difference, but from what I've seen in the past, Monroe drains 10 times better than Oak Hill or CCR and is seemingly always a firmer/sandier track.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bellevue CC
Brook-Lea CC
CC of Buffalo
CC of Rochester
Glens Falls CC
Irondequoit CC
Mark Twain GC
Monroe GC
Oak Hill CC (East)
Oak Hill CC (West)
Sagamore Resort & GC
Teugega CC

Least Known on GCA
Bellevue
Irondequoit
Brook-Lea

Most Known on GCA
Oak Hill East
Oak Hill West
Tie: Glens Falls-CCBuffalo

I've played CCB, GFCC, TCC, SR and MTGC. I'm a poor witness. Hope to remedy this in the future.

[Rob Marshall]

As many of you know Ross built a number of fine golf courses in upstate NY. I am just curious how those who have played them would rank them from top to bottom. Also which is the most overrated and conversely the most underrated?

Bellevue CC
Brook-Lea CC
CC of Buffalo
CC of Rochester
Glens Falls CC
Irondequoit CC
Mark Twain GC
Monroe GC
Oak Hill CC (East)
Oak Hill CC (West)
Sagamore Resort & GC
Teugega CC

Of the ones I've played:

Oak hill East-Simply a classic
CCR- Great group of par threes. The renovation with the exception of the 18th green was beautiful.
Oak Hill West- nice elevation changes on a site you would think is pretty flat. Some great par 4's.
Monroe- Great greens always fast. Nice piece of property. The only knock is that it is pretty friendly off the tee.
Irondequit- One of the best back nines I've ever played. Front is a little goofy. Fast undulating greens.
Brook lea- Nice layout, fun to play.
Glens Falls- Very nice, fun course. Great setting. Never really figured that one green with "cliff" built into it.
CCB-other than the quarry par three it was a disappointment. I need to get back post renovation. I heard its great.
Bellevue-not my favorite. I expected it to be really good and IMO it wasn't. Probably should give it another look like CCB.

[Rob Marshall]

What is it about Monroe's location that gives it sandier soil than the others?

From what I'm told its sandy soil with shale under it that allows the water to filter and drain very quickly. Pat Gertler (sp) on this site would know better.

[Philip Caccamise]

I've played them all except Glens Falls and Teugega.

Excluding those, I'd rank them:

Oak Hill CC (East) - still the champ despite the unnecessary changes
CC of Rochester - looks a lot easier on the scorecard than it plays. a lot of fun.
Monroe GC - haven't played it post renovation but it looked better on TV than I remember. Would have been behind Oak Hill West before the renovation so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt here.
CC of Buffalo - I was always a big fan. The quarry hole, of course, is as unique as any hole in golf.
Oak Hill CC (West) - Not a little sister to the East, and a wonderful walking course.
Irondequoit CC
Bellevue CC
Brook-Lea CC - Low profile but an excellent golf course and nice family club. Probably the only course I've ever played where both 9's end with par 3's.
Mark Twain GC - one of the "best value" courses you will find anywhere.
Sagamore Resort & GC - it's been a while but I recall it being overpriced for what it is.

Also to note in Upstate NY, DR designed the Lake course at Chautauqua, Rip Van Winkle (9 holes), and I believe 9 holes at Thendara. Never played the latter two, the former would be last on the list above. It's probably the easiest Ross course I've ever played by quite a bit.

[Tom_Doak]

Clearly my views are at odds with those before me.

Based on my trip this fall, I've got it:

8:  Glens Falls
7:  Monroe
6:  Teugega
     Oak Hill (East)
     CC of Buffalo
     Oak Hill (West)
5:  The Sagamore
     Mark Twain
     CC of Rochester

I saw CC of Rochester thirty years ago, before any of the recent work, so that one is not a fair comparison.

[Philip Caccamise]

I think we are pretty close Tom. On your scale, I'd go:
7: Oak Hill CC (East), CCR, Monroe
6: CCB, Oak Hill (West)
5: Irondequoit CC, Bellevue CC
4: Brook-Lea CC, Mark Twain GC, Sagamore Resort & GC
3: Chautauqua (Lake)

The one note I would make is I feel the two 6's are probably 6+'s and the 5's are 5-'s, there is a pretty good gap between the sets.

[Rob Marshall]

Clearly my views are at odds with those before me.

Based on my trip this fall, I've got it:

8:  Glens Falls
7:  Monroe
6:  Teugega
     Oak Hill (East)
     CC of Buffalo
     Oak Hill (West)
5:  The Sagamore
     Mark Twain
     CC of Rochester

I saw CC of Rochester thirty years ago, before any of the recent work, so that one is not a fair comparison.

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Though the Quarry hole gets the big attention, I would rate Buffalo in the top 5 of all Ross courses.  Aside from the 17th green, all greens are truly great, and overall, these can hang with #2,  Seminole, Barton Hills, and Plainfield.   The par 3's have great variety.  There are two awesome short, drivable for some, par 4's.  And the par 5's have wonderful character. And the finishing hole  has to be among the most challenging that Ross built.

[Ronald Montesano]

Clearly my views are at odds with those before me.

Based on my trip this fall, I've got it:

8:  Glens Falls
7:  Monroe
6:  Teugega
     Oak Hill (East)
     CC of Buffalo
     Oak Hill (West)
5:  The Sagamore
     Mark Twain
     CC of Rochester

I saw CC of Rochester thirty years ago, before any of the recent work, so that one is not a fair comparison.

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

My contribution would be retention of Ross (ROR). With the exception of the 16th, the holes at GFCC are all Ross. And you'll be hard-pressed to pick 16 out as the one renovated hole. The integrity of the course and the way it works over the land are remarkable.

[Rob Marshall]

Clearly my views are at odds with those before me.

Based on my trip this fall, I've got it:

8:  Glens Falls
7:  Monroe
6:  Teugega
     Oak Hill (East)
     CC of Buffalo
     Oak Hill (West)
5:  The Sagamore
     Mark Twain
     CC of Rochester

I saw CC of Rochester thirty years ago, before any of the recent work, so that one is not a fair comparison.

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

My contribution would be retention of Ross (ROR). With the exception of the 16th, the holes at GFCC are all Ross. And you'll be hard-pressed to pick 16 out as the one renovated hole. The integrity of the course and the way it works over the land are remarkable.

If I remember correctly 16 used to go across the road. The green is still there. It's a nice little practice area.  I would agree the "new" 16th fits the course. I think that change was made a looong time ago.

[John Foley]

Ranked in order of those listed.

Oak Hill CC (West) - Best walk in the park course around - great par 3's and #13 is  the best golf hole in the area.
Monroe GC - Just a bit below OH-W
Oak Hill CC (East) - A great championship test just
Teugega - need some chain-saws to improve but great bones.
CC of Rochester
Bellevue CC - a few good holes but a few that are polarizing
Irondequoit CC - I know perople love it but just doesn't do it for me
Mark Twain GC - solid course on less than solid terrain
Brook-Lea CC - Liked it but nothing memorable.


Have not played CC of B, Sagamore or Glens Falls (and if it's an 8 I know whats on the top of the list to get to next year).

[Brad Tufts]

Let's see...of those listed that I have played...

Glens Falls (last month)
Oak Hill West (2009 or so)
CC Buffalo (last month)
CC Rochester (2010)
Teugega (last month)
Monroe CC (2011)
Sagamore (2010)

Haven't been to the others...yet!  And I do like all the above...they are all in the ballpark of each other quality-wise...the top three a tick above.

[Mark McKeever]

Paging John Lyon..


MM

[JNC Lyon]

I haven't seen Glens Falls or the Sagamore. I'm wondering if I need to be more aggressive about getting to Glens Falls the next time I'm up there if it's truly better than Monroe or Oak Hill West.

My thoughts: OHCC West, Monroe, Teugega, CC Rochester, and CC Buffalo are all very close in my mind. They each have their strengths, and they each have their flaws. Oak Hill West gets a slight edge over the rest. It could be a home course bias, but I think the West has the best greens of the bunch, and it may also have the best routing. Monroe is really solid as well, but it loses points for some pedestrian holes early in each nine and the worst hole among any of the five courses, the par five 12th. I would like to hear why CCR ranks as a 5 on the Doak Scale. I know the routing is a bit goofy after the RTJ add-ons, but the best holes there are as good as any of the best Ross holes in Upstate NY. I always put it on the same level as the West and Monroe, though those two might be a bit better.

Everybody knows CCB's quarry holes are tremendous. I would have to see the recent restored version to judge how it fits into the rest of the pack.

One other one that should be on the list is the front nine in Thendara. It has two of the craziest greens I've ever seen, and it has a very neat, low-key setting.

[Tom_Doak]

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

Better property:  Glens Falls
More interesting routing:  Glens Falls
Better greens contours:  Glens Falls

The last one is the biggest difference to me.  Oak Hill's greens [East course] have all been flattened for tournament speeds; some of the corner hole locations have been lost; and in truth they didn't look like they were ever a great set of greens.  The West course greens are certainly more interesting than the East, but not as good as Glens Falls or Monroe.

[Rob Marshall]

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

Better property:  Glens Falls
More interesting routing:  Glens Falls
Better greens contours:  Glens Falls

The last one is the biggest difference to me.  Oak Hill's greens [East course] have all been flattened for tournament speeds; some of the corner hole locations have been lost; and in truth they didn't look like they were ever a great set of greens.  The West course greens are certainly more interesting than the East, but not as good as Glens Falls or Monroe.

You really think that the green contours are better at Monroe than the West?

[John Blain]

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

Better property:  Glens Falls
More interesting routing:  Glens Falls
Better greens contours:  Glens Falls

The last one is the biggest difference to me.  Oak Hill's greens [East course] have all been flattened for tournament speeds; some of the corner hole locations have been lost; and in truth they didn't look like they were ever a great set of greens.  The West course greens are certainly more interesting than the East, but not as good as Glens Falls or Monroe.

When did Oak Hill flatten ALL of their greens for tournament speeds? I knew that they took some of the slope out of the fifth green which is a Fazio green and there was also some talk about "rebuilding" the thirteenth green for the 2013 PGA Championship but it was ultimately not approved by the membership. ...not sure about any other changes in the greens on the east.

[Ed Homsey]

Haven't played Sagamore or Glens Falls.  Those I've played would rank as follows:

Oak Hill West
Teugega
Monroe
CC of Buffalo

I think it is really tough to choose among those five.
 

But, here it gets murky for me.  I'm not wild about any of the remaining courses on the list.  Oak Hill east is a big, intimidating course and stands up well for the pga events held there, but a Ross course???  Recently flattened greens include the 6th and 15th.  Same with CCR.  Gil Hanss created a wonderful look to the place, but with the much earlier RTJ remodeling, it lost its groove.  Was a wonderful course before the practice range came along.  I would probably refrain from any opportunity to go back to Mark Twain, Bellevue, Irondequoit, or Brooklea. I know of a couple of local muni courses I'd prefer.  Someone mentioned Thendara.  There's a course I'd go back to in a New York Minute.  Love the Ross front nine, with several really wild greens and great cop bunkerinig; and, the back is another world.  Not certain who did it.  Some sources say Harries.  The back 9 ups the challenge of the course by several degrees and is a perfect counterpoint to the front.

[Rob Marshall]

Haven't played Sagamore or Glens Falls.  Those I've played would rank as follows:

Oak Hill West
Teugega
Monroe
CC of Buffalo

I think it is really tough to choose among those five.
  

But, here it gets murky for me.  I'm not wild about any of the remaining courses on the list.  Oak Hill east is a big, intimidating course and stands up well for the pga events held there, but a Ross course???  Recently flattened greens include the 6th and 15th.  Same with CCR.  Gil Hanss created a wonderful look to the place, but with the much earlier RTJ remodeling, it lost its groove.  Was a wonderful course before the practice range came along.  I would probably refrain from any opportunity to go back to Mark Twain, Bellevue, Irondequoit, or Brooklea. I know of a couple of local muni courses I'd prefer.  Someone mentioned Thendara.  There's a course I'd go back to in a New York Minute.  Love the Ross front nine, with several really wild greens and great cop bunkerinig; and, the back is another world.  Not certain who did it.  Some sources say Harries.  The back 9 ups the challenge of the course by several degrees and is a perfect counterpoint to the front.

So how much of the East that remains is Ross?

[Ed Homsey]

A great question, Rob.  I don't know.  Probably some of the routing.  But, is there a single green surface that is original? 

[John Blain]

A great question, Rob.  I don't know.  Probably some of the routing.  But, is there a single green surface that is original? 

Ed-

Would you really put Teugega ahead of Monroe and CCB?  On what basis? I also really like CCR and thought Gil Hanse did a great job on the renovation. Are holes 5,6 and 7 really that bad? CCR is a course I could play everyday and die a happy man.

With regards to OH east I believe holes #1,2,3,4,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,16 and 17 are the original greens. Like many I am not crazy about the Fazio holes and I believe there are too many trees but I still think it remains one of the great courses in upstate NY.

I also like Brook-Lea and have always felt that if it were on the other side of Rochester it would garner a lot more respect.

Just my two cents. Happy Thanksgiving.

John