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Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2014, 08:03:50 AM »
Royal Balfron, without any doubt.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Jon Earl

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Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2014, 08:20:01 AM »
Looking through the list I've realised that I've played quite a few of the Kent and Surrey courses.

Of those I've played Bearwood Lakes is by far the best with Chart Hills in second.

People I know who have been lucky enough to play Queenwood rave about it.

From the list an honorable mention must go to Moatlands which is the worst course I have ever played. Thankfully, it is NLE.
Splosh! One of the finest sights in the world: the other man's ball dropping in the water - preferably so that he can see it but cannot quite reach it and has therefore to leave it there, thus rendering himself so mad that he loses the next hole as well.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2014, 08:53:24 AM »
Looking through the list I've realised that I've played quite a few of the Kent and Surrey courses.



From the list an honorable mention must go to Moatlands which is the worst course I have ever played. Thankfully, it is NLE.


Jon you will I hope feel sympathy for me for   I've also played "The Vale" and it was much more hideous.  Still have the Moatlands Scoresaver . "The longest bunker in Europe!" and something tells me it was the 13th where the only landing area was 125 yards in front of you and then a full wood needed to go at the green! Brilliant.




Tom Apparently they've messed with the 9th to fit a driving range in, but I have happy memories of a good deal and fine golf at Stockley Park, RTJ.   Lets see if we can't pull it off next year?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jon Earl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2014, 10:14:43 AM »
Looking through the list I've realised that I've played quite a few of the Kent and Surrey courses.



From the list an honorable mention must go to Moatlands which is the worst course I have ever played. Thankfully, it is NLE.


Jon you will I hope feel sympathy for me for   I've also played "The Vale" and it was much more hideous.  Still have the Moatlands Scoresaver . "The longest bunker in Europe!" and something tells me it was the 13th where the only landing area was 125 yards in front of you and then a full wood needed to go at the green! Brilliant.



Tony, I've gone to Google Earth to remind myself of the horror. I seem to remember being told the designer (notice I didn't use 'architect') didn't actually visit the site and planned it on his computer. The problem once they came to build the course they realised that a load of trees were protected (one hole had a line of trees in front of the tee) as was a Victorian bath house which ended up in the middle of one of the fairways (an historic clowns mouth). The highlight was a par 5 which had a drainage ditch running down the middle of the fairway which was practically impossible to avoid with your tee shot bar aiming for the rough. From the first half of the ditch you could get relief. The second half was a hazard.

Such happy memories.
Splosh! One of the finest sights in the world: the other man's ball dropping in the water - preferably so that he can see it but cannot quite reach it and has therefore to leave it there, thus rendering himself so mad that he loses the next hole as well.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2014, 02:40:37 PM »
Adrian,
Thanks for listing all those courses. You remind me of many I have forgotten (for very good reasons!). Why were so many bad courses built? There are some good ones and a few ordinary ones, but around this part of England there are some very bad ones. Not all survive, but most do, and there are some not on your list. I'll try to send you what few details I know of the missing ones, Woodside in Cheshire, for instance (it's not bad, merely dull).

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2014, 02:54:45 PM »
Jon - I'd rather play Brahan than most of those as well. So you're not alone.


+1

Modern inlands in the UK do nothing for me and Brahan looks pretty cool.

We are pretty proud of it Brian :) If you are up our way drop in.

Jon

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2014, 04:49:23 PM »
Moatlands - an old friend sold half of the land they used for the course for £1m, they then lorried in an 18" layer of sand for the entire course. It's rumoured the project cost the Japanese backers circa £20m. When the clubhouse was sold they tried to sell the course but with no chance of a clubhouse the land was eventually sold for £375k.....thats a BIG loss!

I've played Wisley and Queenwood both of which are immaculately presented and well maintained, Wisley gets very samey dog leg left over water or dog leg right over water. Queenwood is pretty well designed bar a 90 degree dog leg on the front nine and a par 3 on the back 12(?) which is semi blind and a little out of place. Both are in the right part of the country so very successful as clubs.
Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2014, 05:27:50 PM »
Wisley and Queenwood are not candidates IMO if you like your architecture, but conditioning is good.

Loch Lomond would be the best by absolute miles if you are looking at the best holes. Castle Stuart would be a contender if it were not considered a links but I think it probably is. Marquess if you talk to the pros.

Really its a case of what floats your boat. Unless you want to go with what 95% would say. LL.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Glenn Kirby

Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2014, 05:35:48 PM »
I've had the pleasure of playing The Grove, Chart Hills and walking Loch Lomond, Bearwood Lakes, Remedy Oaks, a few holes of The Marquess and Queenwood, out of those 7 I'd say Queenwood fits most comfortably into its surroundings and felt incredibly firm underfoot - given the choice that's where I'd play first. Chart hills was a really enjoyable round of golf but being from a course maintenance background just walked round thinking "I couldn't tolerate this bunkering!"

Walked both The Palmerston and The Carrick during construction and can't believe they aren't worth a visit.

PGA at the Belfry and the Oxfordshire felt far too forced for my liking and I have little desire to play again despite the great condition they are often in.

Often think the International at The London Club is often unfairly overlooked - credited to Jack Nicklaus but is predominantly Ron Kirby. There is a few over the top holes that will keep the "corporate" golfers happy but overall it has some interesting holes, wide fairways, it's allowed to dry out in the summer, big wide open approaches and some good greens. Not saying it's the best in this list but worth a visit if the chance comes up.

Glenn

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2014, 06:08:31 PM »
Adrian,
Thanks for listing all those courses. You remind me of many I have forgotten (for very good reasons!). Why were so many bad courses built? There are some good ones and a few ordinary ones, but around this part of England there are some very bad ones. Not all survive, but most do, and there are some not on your list. I'll try to send you what few details I know of the missing ones, Woodside in Cheshire, for instance (it's not bad, merely dull).

This whole thread could just as easily have been How Did Architecture Get So Bad?

Farm for sale, architect required, no golf architecture knowledge necessary!!!!
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2014, 06:13:30 PM »
all depends on how you measure success Paul.... What GCA thinks is good or what golf courses have proved popular with the most people based on value for money and have made people successfull, not gone bankrupt and created lots of jobs.

You decide? I already have.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Glenn Kirby

Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2014, 06:43:14 PM »


This whole thread could just as easily have been How Did Architecture Get So Bad?

Farm for sale, architect required, no golf architecture knowledge necessary!!!!
[/quote]

Paul,

The true test will be who's still standing in one hundred years time - they'll all evolve for good and for bad, many will be lost, a good business footing is more vital than design for this. I'm sure some of the "classics" weren't so great when they opened. Surely at 20 years old only the foundations have been laid for these courses - the big question for me is who's in control of their evolution and what direction will they take them?

Glenn

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »
Come now, whilst I'm not suggesting that everything was bad, far from it in fact, there was a lot of inexperienced money flooding the market there for a while and a lot of crap is going to come from that in any profession. It's not a specific golf issue, simply the way things are. I'm all in favour of an egalitarian market and hope the more obvious design disasters can be reformed under the 'age of prudent' we apparently now have but let's not try to rewrite history and pretend we don't all know what results from a rush to market. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2014, 04:34:05 AM »
Of those mentioned so far, I am a member of Bearwood Lakes and have played The Grove, Marquess, Oxfordshire. May I lob in The Edinburgh course at Wentworth as a very good course opened (just) since 1990?

I like Bearwood Lakes. It is a members club with a pretty good layout and a green keeping attitude that is fairly simpatico with GCA sentiment. They have cut back trees, they vary the rough shape and depth, try to keep a natural and attractive look and like firm and fast, with recent work to firm out green surrounds, and are updating some of the weaker holes to make them better risk-reward propositions. The greenskeeper keeps a blog which is quite interesting: http://blgcgd.blogspot.co.uk.

I though The Grove was a course with future potential, but needs a couple of decades of growth to better define it.

Like The Marquess, some forgettable holes bit many good holes and nice rhythm around the course.

The Oxfordshire is a slog. I would give up golf if I had to play there every week. It is possibly a decent course located in the wrong country. Not sure what the right country is, or if it even on Earth.

I really like The Edinburgh. Maybe the most pleasant course at Wentworth, and certainly a bit better priced and quieter than the West.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 05:35:26 AM by Martin Toal »

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2014, 05:44:24 AM »
Of those mentioned so far, I am a member of Bearwood Lakes and have played The Grove, Marquess, Oxfordshire. May I lob in The Edinburgh course at Wentworth as a very good course opened (just) since 1990?

I like Bearwood Lakes. It is a members club with a pretty good layout and a green keeping attitude that is fairly simpatico with GCA sentiment. They have cut back trees, they vary the rough shape and depth, try to keep a natural and attractive look and like firm and fast, with recent work to firm out green surrounds, and are updating some of the weaker holes to make them better risk-reward propositions. The greenskeeper keeps a blog which is quite interesting: http://blgcgd.blogspot.co.uk.

I though The Grove was a course with future potential, but needs a couple of decades of growth to better define it.

Like The Marquess, some forgettable holes bit many good holes and nice rhythm around the course.

The Oxfordshire is a slog. I would give up golf if I had to play there every week. It is possibly a decent course located in the wrong country. Not sure what the right country is, or if it even on Earth.

I really like The Edinburgh. Maybe the most pleasant course at Wentworth, and certainly a bit better priced and quieter than the West.

Martin, I checked the Daniel Lightfoot blog and the ariel pictures don't seem to tally up with the Bearwood Lakes that I remember. Have they added an extra lake or something?

Be interested to know.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2014, 05:51:01 AM »
In fact here are a couple of images that have confused me because I truly don't recognise this hole.




Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2014, 06:06:35 AM »
Marc, there's been a fairly substantial renovation at Bearwood over the last couple of years, led by Guy Hockley, who was the lead architect for Hawtree on the original build. Those holes around the pond have been changed quite a lot.

Dan Lightfoot is leaving Bearwood (he may just have left) for a job with Syngenta. I haven't yet heard who will replace him, but it'll be a difficult hire for the club - a very, very good greenkeeper.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2014, 06:07:57 AM »
Marc

Those photos are the same hole...#9. Its been reworked a bit.  The club has tinkered here and there in recent years.   

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41242.0.html

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2014, 06:20:41 AM »
Thanks Guys I kind of worked it out myself that it had to be the 9th but just could not remember it having a lake. If it did not then it kind of links into the whole why is modern UK architecture so bad thread. I mean did they have to turn it into yet another ANGC 16th?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2014, 07:10:06 AM »
Not criticising Bearwood, which I've not played or visited, in particular, and there are others using a similar style, but I'm not a fan of bunkering that looks like dog-bones, Mickey Mouse's ears and clover leaves -



atb

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990? New
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2014, 12:09:20 PM »
Looking through the list I've realised that I've played quite a few of the Kent and Surrey courses.



From the list an honorable mention must go to Moatlands which is the worst course I have ever played. Thankfully, it is NLE.


Jon you will I hope feel sympathy for me for   I've also played "The Vale" and it was much more hideous.  Still have the Moatlands Scoresaver . "The longest bunker in Europe!" and something tells me it was the 13th where the only landing area was 125 yards in front of you and then a full wood needed to go at the green! Brilliant.




Tom Apparently they've messed with the 9th to fit a driving range in, but I have happy memories of a good deal and fine golf at Stockley Park, RTJ.   Lets see if we can't pull it off next year?

Tony, as always I would definitely be interested in a game, an RTJ course with a peak green fee of £28 has me intrigued!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 06:53:41 AM by Tom Kelly »

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2014, 03:21:21 AM »
In fact here are a couple of images that have confused me because I truly don't recognise this hole.





Pic 1 is the 8th (short par-4) on the left playing from about 2/3 of the way up the frame to the green out of sight below the bottom of the picture, followed by the 9th (par-3) on the right playing from bottom to top. The white (medal) and black (championship) tees are out of frame below the picture.

The second picture is the 9th green from the left hand side as you see the green from the tee.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 11:01:46 AM by Martin Toal »

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2014, 03:55:40 AM »
I think it is hard to look beyond Loch Lomond. I do think it got overrated, a combination of the beauty of the setting, the exclusiveness and yet being on telly every year - it's not anywhere near the 24th best course in GB&I, as Top100 has it, imo, and despite huge amounts of drainage works it's never been anything but soft when I've been there, kinda inevitable in such a wet spot. But it has a bunch of wonderful holes, a very interesting set of greens, and it's a class above anything else inland and modern as far as I'm concerned.

Of the other contenders mentioned here, I like Chart Hills very much; Smyers, imo, is a strong designer who generally sets you a bunch of good questions with his holes. I'm not that keen on the aesthetic, which removes it from consideration for top honours - and it's worse since they had to cut costs and reduce the greens crew, because some of the ott 1990s bunkering is still there, but just not being maintained as well. But I'd never turn down a game.

I do think Cherkley Court/Beaverbrook GC will be a serious player in this debate. It is a glorious piece of land, and now David has rediscovered the joys of fun golf and is less interested in kicking players in the head over and over again I suspect he and his crew will do something pretty special there. For that matter, I liked gWest a great deal when I saw it, but that was four and a half years ago, on the way to the 2010 St Andrews Open; it was basically finished then, and it still hasn't opened, so who knows when it actually might? I still can't believe the ownership was crazy enough to have the entire golfing world within half a mile and not have the place open...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2014, 06:54:02 AM »
Hopefully Robin's JCB course will be up there too... I had a detailed look at the master plan with him and loved it... A load of fun ideas...

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best GB&I inland courses built since circa 1990?
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2014, 07:02:41 AM »
Hopefully Robin's JCB course will be up there too... I had a detailed look at the master plan with him and loved it... A load of fun ideas...

Me too, I think it is going to be excellent, _if_ they can fix the drainage ok.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.