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Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Four Posted
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2014, 04:22:29 PM »
Here's Teugega in 1960 with less trees and more width & bunkers......


Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Four Posted
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2014, 04:29:18 PM »
Dean, that's a great image. Tells us that the specimen tree on two was there, but all the garbage up the fourth was not, including the cluster that Bogey wants to zap.
Coming in 2024
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~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Four Posted
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 04:54:14 PM »
Ron:

Here's another one from 1942. It's not as detailed with the ground features, but you can tell what trees were (and were not) there at the time....


jeffwarne

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Four Posted
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 05:14:41 PM »
Man you guys are good.
great pictures Ron.

Great aerials Dean

Gotta beef up my upstate resume-thought with my daugters upstate in Ithaca and Middlebury it would happen-it hasn't ::) ::)
though I have seen a couple
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Four Posted
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2014, 06:28:26 PM »
Man - it looks like #9 was always a claustrophobic clusterf&!@!  But 8 was clearly made worse over the years by over-planting the left side.

However, from the accounts of the members we spoke with, the current version is fairly wide open relative to what was there before.  While Ron & I were praising the improvements (with much more to go, IMO), we saw what Barry Jordan was up against.

"It's too easy now" or "I like holes that reward straight drivers" was the feedback. 

I agree completely with Bogey re: #4.  This could be a grand, sweeping hole with beautifully contoured land.  Instead, it feels like three segmented shots. A definite missed opportunity.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Five Posted
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2014, 09:11:43 PM »
The fifth hole (measuring 468, 430 and 383) was engulfed in the final days of a rebuild when we passed through. I imagine it was back to shape for the NYSGA Mid-Am in September. Although the tee ball is uphill (perhaps adding 5% distance to the hole) it does not appear to present much challenge as a par five.

The trees up the left side of the rough are all gone, praise Jesus. For us, #5 played as a 160-yard par three, between the sprinklers (as no one in particular says.) The hole is not nearly the three-shotter that its predecessor is, but I'd love to see the three bunkers in the hill face restored to some visual glory, and perhaps another three-bunker stack farther up the fairway. Don't recall the green being anything special, which is a shame. If I return, this hole will both interest (to see how it turned out) and disinterest (since I don't expect much) me.

As a result, I invite anyone who has played the hole in its entirety (before, since or both) to comment freely.



Here's your tee shot on the fifth



View through the periscope, which came from...



this guy!!



What the bunkers looked like in June, which wasn't much :(



Some 210 yards out from the tee, about 255 to the green



Some 175 yards out from the green (you can see our tees just ahead)



A look from about 75 yards distant, far right side of fairway



Teugega Website Fifth Hole Description: http://teugega.com/course.asp?id=5
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:16:38 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole SIX Posted
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2014, 09:16:10 AM »
You may get two or three holes out of me today, depending on the amount of snow that falls. Hopefully the comments will continue and it will be less of the MPT show.

When you peg your ball on the sixth tee, the notion of a two-shot hole returns after the 3-5-5 run. Ross once again gives you a straight hole, but Mama Naturaleza and Arbor Day conspire to make you work for your supper. Two trees define the play of the hole, which is a shame. The tree up the right side of the fairway is beautiful next to your local library; here it forces you to play left, toward...the tree farther up the left side, in the rough. It would support a swing or two in your back yard, but here it blocks out any recovery from that side of the hole.

The reason the trees are a shame is the pair of short-approach/bombed-drive bunkers about 25 yards shy of the green. These should dictate the way the hole is played, but they are an afterthought. The green should dictate the way the hole is played, as it has more undulation than any surface we've seen since green the second.

The play on this 350-333-282 yard hole might be with a hybrid. If the wind is not in your face, why take on either tree? Lay back and hit a mid iron into the putting surface.



Step right up and play away.



A glance from the front of the deck shows the landing zone.



Shot from the left side.



This shot, from the previous (5th) fairway) gives a perspective from the right rough.



Shot from the landing zone.



Short left of green #1



Short left of green #2



Teugega Website Sixth Hole Description: http://teugega.com/course.asp?id=6
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:19:13 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Hendren

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2014, 12:18:16 PM »
As shown in Dean's aerial (thanks Dean!) the 5th fairway wrapped around the left-hand bunker about 100 yards out and was much wider.  The abandoned left third of the fairway is plainly visible on the ground.

I think the green is quietly interesting and I suspect few would guess Ross as the architect based upon its extremely low profile.  I'm struck by the sharp contrast between this green and the tenth's.  A great place to chase a ball on and scoot it up the slight rise.  This photo is from short left:



I also think it would be cool to re-sand the three aiming/top shot bunkers both at the 4th and 14th.  Lookout Mountain's 17th is a good example.  
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:26:36 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ed Homsey

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2014, 12:20:25 PM »
Great aerial shots.  For me, it was enlightening to see the large clumps of trees that existed in 1942, and even more interesting to see the bunkering that existed at the time.  Am I the only one whose overhead images cut off the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holes?  I can see just a bit of the fairway of #2 up near the green.

re the 5th hole, I've always looked forward to it as a bit of relief, especially after the somewhat quirky 4th.  The tee shot on 5 is blind, but you see those imposing bunkers (just grass bunkers when I last played) that provide a helpful line of sight.  The green is small, and two-tiered, increasing the demand for an accurate short-iron shot (for me).  Not a great hole, but I wouldn't mess with it.  The 6th hole is a terrific short hole, especially with that very nastily contoured green.  Re trees:  It would be nice to return the hole to the 1942 look.  Proper placement of the drive relative to the pin position is crucial, but difficult to do with that big tree on the right now far off the tee.  


Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2014, 12:22:59 PM »
Am I the only one whose overhead images cut off the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holes?  I can see just a bit of the fairway of #2 up near the green.

Ed, go to the bottom of the last overhead photo...there is a sideways scroll bar to let you see the missing part.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2014, 12:24:21 PM »
Boges, is that the green on five? It looks great in sepia.

It also shows way more movement than I remember.

For some reason, I must have been more hurried on the front (our second nine) than the back. I don't have nearly as many images as I thought. Thanks for including yours.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Hendren

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2014, 12:31:51 PM »
Yes Ron, that's the 5th - I've corrected.  

Time to rev up the chain-saw at the 6th.  I'm guessing the right side of the fairway once extended another 15 to 20 yards.  This is a fantastic green with challenging pin locations across the front's staight line.  I also love how the green narrows at the back to an extremely small target, even with the wedge in hand.  

I absolutely love this golf course, warts and all.

Bogey
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:34:53 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2014, 07:36:11 AM »
I assumed that they were going to resand #4 as part of the process!! Why in heaven's name they wouldn't is beyond me.

Another fine example of rough for rough's sake on this hole. A fairway bunker should have fairway wrapped around it in certain cases. This would be an appropriate one.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Six Posted
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2014, 07:56:22 AM »
We've passed the one-third post of the golf course. The seventh is a one-shot hole that sits alone in a meadow to the side of #1, and distantly-adjacent to the greens at #9 and #18. It is a hole that attracted my eye visually, as I had seen something similar at Triggs in Providence, RI, from Mr. Ross. The bunkers at Teugega are more green-elevation than they are at Triggs, but that's a debt to the topography of each hole location. At 140-130-84 yards from the three tee decks, the wide green's center is negotiable for all.

What Mr. Ross was unable to achieve with green elevation, he achieves in pure green segmentation and undulation. This putting surface prepares one for what awaits on the remaining holes. Teugega is a putting fun house and the first six holes are a nice appetizer. Given Walter J. Travis' penchant for designing interesting greens, I wonder if he ever saw Teugega, or if he goaded Ross into these majestic, sweeping surfaces.

Others might notice what appears to be a thumbprint in the front portion of the green, leading one to speculate on imitation of the "Short" template. Have at it!

I hope that you enjoy this green. If I were a member and wanted to practice my putting, I'd probably walk up to #7 (about 250 yards from the pro shop) and putt there if no one was on the hole.




Tee ball from the stone wall



A view of the entire green surrounds from the side



A closer glance at the segmentation of the green



One last look at the entire surface profile



Teugega Website Seventh Hole Description: http://www.teugega.com/course.asp?id=7
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 09:22:52 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Boerger

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Seven Posted
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2014, 09:03:46 AM »
There is a LOT going on on that green - and where Donald Ross, I read, carded an ace. I also recall those bunkers being deeper than most others on the course. Wonderful hole and fully agree that's where I would practice my putting were I a member.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:27:39 AM by Dan Boerger »
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Seven Posted
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2014, 09:24:24 AM »
Indeed he did!

Ross Plaque


Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Seven Posted
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2014, 05:29:55 PM »
The 8th measures 383, 370 and 330. It is a solid par four as laid out by Ross. The hole (on the left in the first image below) swings left to right around a stand of trees that separates it from the adjoining 9th hole. The trees have been there since the beginning and serve as protection from the right-handed slicer on both holes. The tee ball rises to a blind landing zone and the appropriate play is up the left side.

The green is outstanding, rising up from fairway level with a high-lipped bunker front left of green and another some forty yards short of the green on the right. The green is deep and can house a fair number of hole locations.

The trees up the left side, with the exception of one, were added in the intervening years. There is no need for them and they eliminate many recovery opportunities. This was the area of the course where a couple of members bragged about the narrowness of 8 and 9 and bemoaned the tree-removal plan currently in action. Kevin and I bit our tongues and praised their golf course.
















Teugega Website Eighth Hole Description: http://teugega.com/course.asp?id=8
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 05:54:28 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Eight Posted
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2014, 06:39:59 PM »
Here's a riddle: what do you do if you want a slicer to endanger the lives of golfers on an adjacent fairway AND slow play down at the same time? You leave a massive stand of trees up the left side, rather than trim back about 20 feet in.

When you step to the ninth tee at Teugega, you sigh for the only time during the round. If you work the ball from left to right, you realize that you will end up (if lucky) in the right rough, more trees or that top-shot bunker on eight. If unlucky, you'll end up in the eighth fairway. I'm an outspoken opponent of any hole that restricts one player's options with trees. For that reason, I complain about #9 at Leatherstocking and #2 at River Oaks on Grand Island to any one who will listen.

I'll take a deep breath now and assess the hole. At 373-345-302, the hole plays as a short par four for today's lot, with two cross bunkers about 35 yards from the green. In other words, they don't come into play off the tee, which is a good thing. The green is a terrific one, punishing the guy who gets too deep or not deep enough. I came in feeling my oats on the day and three putts later, left properly humbled.

In the first photo below, the 9th is the hole on the right side of the 8th. Removal of a few rows of trees would bring more sunlight in and make the left-side fairway bunker relevant. As it is, no one sees it unless you somehow scuff one off to that side of the hole.
















Teugega Website Ninth Hole Description: http://teugega.com/course.asp?id=9
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Nine Posted
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2014, 08:05:32 AM »
The tenth at Teugega immediately ticked me off. Why did architects insist on routing holes so close to roads, that an impenetrable, unnavigable stand of trees must be utilized to protect homes and traffic, and obstruct a fade or a draw? As the 9th hole penalized the left to right shot, so does the 10th repay the favor and handcuff the right-to-lefter. Cosmic balance, you say? Kharma? Fine, I'll let it go, Elsa.

At 400-379-318, this two-shotter won't squeeze anyone's cheeks with its distance. The 18th comes in along its left side, so a few guardian trees exist to keep balls from kriss-krossing (jump jump) fairways. Beyond these and the forest right, there is little in the drive zone to concern the tee ball. The second is played over a cross bunker to a green that wakes you up in an instant. The cross bunker is 45 yards short of the green, so not much is required to surpass it with two meager strikes. But that green, oh that green!

There is not one putting surface on the inward half that doesn't test every groove on the face of your putter. It all begins with #10. There are ridges and hollows and humps and pecs and lots of room from front to back and side to side....whew. Perfect example of a flat, static hole from tee to green, vindicated by a fantastic putting surface.






















Teugega Website Tenth Hole Description: http://teugega.com/course.asp?id=10
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Hendren

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Ten Posted
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2014, 10:58:00 AM »
Ron, you are spot on regarding the trees' encroachment on the tee shot at ten.  Only a cut will do.  That said, I was looking forward to your photograph of the green.  While a good one it doesn't begin to do the green justice, particularly the spine that runs down the middle front to back.  This is a brilliantly constructed green, as good a bunkerless one as I've played anywhere.  Quintessential Ross creating something out of nothing.

Looking forward to your profiles of the 11th and 17th - as good a tandem of two shot holes one will see on a side anywhere.

Bogey
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 11:01:26 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Ten Posted
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2014, 05:35:32 PM »
Par Four the Eleventh at 405-392-392



We teed off on eleven and I thought to myself, ok, another flat hole. Bit of a hidden landing zone, plus that sign that says "watch out that you don't drive into the 18th tee on the left. Lynch said "it's 265." I answered, "If I hit it 265, I preen like a peacock and beat my chest like Tarzan."



A lost bunker, pity.



Didn't see this type of thing anywhere else on the course, odd.



Then we arrived at the drive zone and the bottom fell out. HOLY SMOKES! Oh, there's that 18th tee on the left. Who cares? LOOK AT THAT DROP TO THE GREEN!



Better get the approach over the bunker. I wonder what's beyond it?



Oh, I see, a wee burn, another bunker, and a two-tiered green set at an angle with the slope.Not yawn any more.



This is where I try to get tricky with contrast and brightness adjustment, to show off the contour lines of the green.



More trickery...



Done being tricky. Great hole, DJR!



Teugega Website Eleventh Hole Description: http://teugega.com/course.asp?id=11
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 05:53:04 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Boerger

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Eleven Posted
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2014, 05:57:11 PM »
Ron - Thank you for posting these pics. It's a great virtual tour of a wonderful course. Two quick comments:

I find that tee shot on #10 a bit suffocating and (IMO) more tree removal in order.

The approach on #11 is unique and one I enjoy. But the severity of that green is crazy (or at least was for the speed I played it that day). And the bunker seems primitive to me, but perhaps "rustic" to others.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Eleven Posted
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2014, 06:21:18 PM »
Ron - Thank you for posting these pics. It's a great virtual tour of a wonderful course. Two quick comments:

I find that tee shot on #10 a bit suffocating and (IMO) more tree removal in order.

The approach on #11 is unique and one I enjoy. But the severity of that green is crazy (or at least was for the speed I played it that day). And the bunker seems primitive to me, but perhaps "rustic" to others.

Dan, I agree, but they can't take down trees on the right of ten without liability, can they? I think they could have shared fairway between 8 and 9, and 10 and 18, which might be kinda cool.

I would guess that bunkers are next up for restoration. I hope that they are.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Eleven Posted
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2014, 01:59:47 PM »

Trying to empathize with our tree-missing members for a second.   I'm trying to remember how many greens made it imperative or significantly more advantageous to attack from a specified angle, especially given the technological advances in golf balls.  The problem courses run into with mass tree removal is that removing them may not necessarily lead to more strategic play, it simply allows people get on the green from a wider area (with people being able to stop balls aerially from anywhere). 

Sometimes green contours test different things:

- Greens with bold shoulders in the front or sideways slopes tend to reward better angles, since "you can't get there" from certain angles (even from the fairway).

- Other green internal contours seem to test distance control and iron precision more than angles.  For example, a segmented green may be accessible from all angles, but it is difficult to two putt unless you're in the precise section of the green. 


In the former case, trees are definitely unnecessary, because width allows the angles.  However, in the latter case, I can understand why members may think trees are needed more, since a straighter hitter may not want some big hitter swinging for the fences knowing he just has to control his distance from whatever angle he gets. 

Of course, there is usually a mixture of both elements (and to varying degrees).  But I'm curious of people's impressions of the greens at Teugega.  Were they more in the vein of the former / latter design?  And does this perhaps explain some of the member reluctance to tree removal on certain holes?

I don't have a strong feeling either way, but thought it might be worth consideration whether tree removal in some cases simply makes a hole much easier while not adding much strategically while in other cases it unlocks much more strategy (kind of like Tom Doak mentioned about the 2nd hole - which would bring the right green fall off much more into play or at least into the player's heads).


(In any case, I think we all can agree #9 needs a renovation from the firm of Poulan, Husqvarna & Stihl).


Kevin Lynch

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Re: Teugega Country Club MPT (Montesano Photo Tour) Hole Eleven Posted
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2014, 02:26:28 PM »
FYI - Here is the Barry Jordan's restoration Master Plan from the Donald Ross Society Website.  The Plan also includes Ross' drawings, which may be interesting to see.

http://www.donaldross.org/Resources/Documents/T_Plan.pdf

This may help people see what items may have been implemented and which were only "partially" implemented.  For example, the single tree on #2 survived despite the Master Plan intent.

Also, it looks like the Claustro-philes won the battle on #9.

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