Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?

[John Connolly]

A known and well-thought of active golf course architect lauds greens that are "squared up, especially at the front" (per his website).

Two questions come to mind:

1 - Is this purely a golden age style, ala MacDonald/Raynor (not sure about others), and is only restored to such a configuration in the proper setting or is it embraced with new green creations too? Minimalism would seem to say "no".

2 - if not completely square, is there a goal of "squarish" fronts for many greens now?

This is news to me ... but I'm all ears.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

I happen to like "squared up" greens as I think they add a tactical challenge not found on ovular greens.

Many of the GA greens had bunkers immediately adjacent to their perimeters, and as such, hole locations near the perimeter and especially at the corners were exceptioinally challenging.

If there's any one modern day influence that is an impediment to "squared up" greens, it's the riding green's mower.

I like the feature and would like to see it introduced more often in modern day architecture.

[John Connolly]

I like them too - very aesthetically satisfying. What's interesting to me is that they were the norm at the start of the 20th century and then fell out favor for more irregularly shaped greens as the GA dawned. Some archies like Raynor and CB used them to great effectiveness but they never seemed to be ubiquitous with others' plans. Was CB's and Seth's "back to the future" style not well thought of at the time? Maybe just too tough to maintain?

[Jon Wiggett]

John,

the reason for squared green in the old days was due to hand mowing with a none motorised mower. The beasts were so heavy the greenkeeper often had a lad on a rope out front pulling. With this in mind, it is easier to mow in a straight line. Mowing such greens with a ride on mower is all but impossible. I only hand cut at my place and  have lots of square courners on my greens.

Jon

[BHoover]

I never thought that the reason for squared greens would be old mowing techniques, but it seems to make perfect sense. Regardless, I think that squared greens are superior. I enjoy playing to pins cut into corners of these greens, and it's fun trying to play into corners both on approach shots and from off the greens. Aesthetically, I think squared greens just look superior to circular or oval greens. So whether they are truly a Golden Age feature or not (seems like they are), I hope their use continues to be promoted.

[Chris DeToro]

Agree with all the comments on squared greens.  I love the look, they're fun to play into and in today's world, they provide an added unique feature.  If all greens were square, maybe I'd feel differently, but I'm a fan

[Josh Smith]

A few years ago I saw this for the first time in Chicago at two great courses and thought it looked really cool.  I do think that seeing it while approaching a green gives you a feeling like I can take on a little more risk, hit this even closer to the hazard than I normally would and have a pretty sure result so long as I pull off the shot.  To me it made me want to flirt more with danger and anytime architecture or agronomy can do that I see it as a good thing.  Which architect recently wrote about it?

[Tom Allen]

I too really like the look of squared-off greens.  Wish we saw it more, but as explained above, I can see why we don't.  Here's an idea.  How about "squarish" greens, where the corners are radiused just enough so that they can still be mowed easily with today's technology?

[Jeff_Brauer]

First saw it at the restored Gulph Mills in Philly a decade back.  I had noticed many Ross plans showing it, although the backs of greens usually had curved shapes.  But, certainly in the front, given the mowers, it makes a nice tie into the fairway, at least on greens where there are no frontal bunkers or partial frontal bunkers.

I have designed a few.  As to Tom Allen's point, given the clean up pass is now usually tri plexed, I have seen most go back to a very tight radius curve, rather than perfectly square.  Most supers don't seem to think it's worth that little extra effort to get that look at least on a circa 2000 Brauer design.  Maybe those at old Ross clubs feel differently!

[John Connolly]

I too really like the look of squared-off greens.  Wish we saw it more, but as explained above, I can see why we don't.  Here's an idea.  How about "squarish" greens, where the corners are radiused just enough so that they can still be mowed easily with today's technology?

+1

And as Jeff B indicates, some others, Ross, perodically just squared the front. Which would seem to accomoplish at least 2 things:
1 - it ties the green nicely to the fairway
2 - it gives the player encouragement to consider the ground game, particulary if the hole calls for a long approach. No choked green entrance.

Whenever I walk up onto the green that's constructed as such, I think .... "cool" ...

[Ian Andrew]

We did that with Quogue Field Club.
The super was hand mowing the greens - the original fill pads were very rectangular - and he was comfortable with mowing it that pattern

It works with very well with flanking bunkers, but not so much with diagonal bunkering set in front.

[Ed Brzezowski]

The first ones I ever played were/are at Tavistock outside of Philly. It really is an unusual but cool look.

the backs were rounded off but the fronts really caught your eye. If I recall that is a Findlay course. Maybe Jamie Slonis will chime in??

[BHoover]

My course is an old Ross design that now has squared off green pads. I don't know for sure whether the squared greens were original or whether they were restored to "look original," but regardless, I love the look and playing features of the squared greens. Not all of the greens are squared, but most of them at least have squared off frontage and/or angled corners that allow for some great pin locations.

[Brian Hilko]

My club squared off the fronts of the greens in our "restoration". I really enjoy the look. There are some photos in this thread. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24271.0.html

[Paul Gray]

Brian,

Just as an aside, are those front bunkers and the lack of fairway length grass in front of what I assume to be the 18th part of Ross's original work?

Think the greens look very cool.

[Jon Wiggett]

Brian,

really great looking course, thanks for bringing this thread back up as I missed it the first time.

Jon

[Chris DeToro]

Battle Creek CC, a Willie Park design, had a couple greens that were squared off in the back of the green.  Most of these features were brought back during the restoration a couple years ago

[BHoover]

Brian,

Just as an aside, are those front bunkers and the lack of fairway length grass in front of what I assume to be the 18th part of Ross's original work?

Think the greens look very cool.

The hole that is surrounded by bunkers and rough is actually the 9th hole, which is a downhill par 3 of about 150 yards. I think the original design  featured bunkering that is very similar to what is there now. I think the current bunkering is good, and I don't mind the lack of fairway cut grass because it's a short, target-style par 3.

Here is a link to my photo tour from earlier this summer, which includes a Ross drawing of the layout and an aerial from the 1930s.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58639.0.html

[Alex Miller]

Good idea- but not the only thing that works obviously.

I like squared greens and I really like the Ross square fronts, but I think the reason WHY I like them is when they are contrasted with natural/random terrain. The juxtaposition of the influence of man on a natural site is very appealing to me, but only if it's done right. 

[BHoover]

Good idea- but not the only thing that works obviously.

I like squared greens and I really like the Ross square fronts, but I think the reason WHY I like them is when they are contrasted with natural/random terrain. The juxtaposition of the influence of man on a natural site is very appealing to me, but only if it's done right.  

I completely agree. I love the geometric look of tees, greens and bunkers contrasting with the natural terrain.

[Paul Gray]

Brian,

Just as an aside, are those front bunkers and the lack of fairway length grass in front of what I assume to be the 18th part of Ross's original work?

Think the greens look very cool.

The hole that is surrounded by bunkers and rough is actually the 9th hole, which is a downhill par 3 of about 150 yards. I think the original design  featured bunkering that is very similar to what is there now. I think the current bunkering is good, and I don't mind the lack of fairway cut grass because it's a short, target-style par 3.

Here is a link to my photo tour from earlier this summer, which includes a Ross drawing of the layout and an aerial from the 1930s.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58639.0.html

Brian,

Thanks greatly for that. It all makes far more sense now.

[Carl Johnson]

I play at a Ross course, rejuvenated  about 6 years ago by Kris Spence, with an attempt in many cases to capture the old square-ish greens.  Today some are very square, some sort-of square, and other not so much square, but still essentially four sided.  What strikes me about this subject is that while playing the course, which I do a lot, the square-ishness isn't something I notice.  Maybe it is familiarity, or that somehow they don't "feel" square while you are playing them because the contours, often with ridges coming in from corners that take your eye away from the shape.  Or, maybe it's just that you're not the hawk flying above. When you play such a course, is the square-ishness of the greens something you notice while playing?  (For the course I play, go to Google Maps and look up Carolina Golf Club, Charlotte, NC, then make sure you're on satellite view and zero in.  That's the best way to see the outlines of the greens.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

the reason for squared green in the old days was due to hand mowing with a none motorised mower. The beasts were so heavy the greenkeeper often had a lad on a rope out front pulling. With this in mind, it is easier to mow in a straight line. Mowing such greens with a ride on mower is all but impossible. I only hand cut at my place and  have lots of square courners on my greens.


Jon,

I don't agree.

They still had to turn the hand mowers when they reached the perimeter of the green, just as they do today with walking mowers.

I don't believe that the method of mowing greens dictated their architecture/shape

I don't believe that the introduction of the geometric school/style of architecture was the by-product of mowing practices

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

John,

the reason for squared green in the old days was due to hand mowing with a none motorised mower. The beasts were so heavy the greenkeeper often had a lad on a rope out front pulling. With this in mind, it is easier to mow in a straight line. Mowing such greens with a ride on mower is all but impossible. I only hand cut at my place and  have lots of square courners on my greens.


Jon,

I don't agree.

They still had to turn the hand mowers when they reached the perimeter of the green, just as they do today with walking mowers.

I don't believe that the method of mowing greens dictated their architecture/shape

I don't believe that the introduction of the geometric school/style of architecture was the by-product of mowing practices

Jon

Patrick,

I am not claiming it is entirely due to this but it was one of the major factors for it. As for the turning of the mower, this is done with the blades lift so the machine would not be mowing grass which makes pushing the machine a lot easier. I have experience of using one of these old mowers and can assure that pushing it in anything other than a straight line whilst mowing is really tough.

Jon

[Philip Caccamise]

My home course has squared off greens on several holes. I love it. According to the owner, when Keith Foster did the renovation, they wanted to emulate Camargo Club which has several squared off greens. And these are 90*, not psuedo-squared off. One of these days I'll post some pictures of them.