Most under appreciated Golden Age Archie

[John Connolly]

(Is "Golden Era" post WWI?)

Definitely a Chicago-centric answer, but I would say Herbert J. Tweedie.
Tweedie laid out some incredible courses that were subsequently "redone" by Flynn, Ross, Langford, CBM, etc.

Thanks, Dan Moore, for the following:

"In Cornish and Whitten’s “The Golf Course”, Tweedie was credited with laying out the following courses: Belmont, Bryn Mawr, Exmoor, Homewood (now Flossmoor), Glen View, LaGrange, Midlothian, Park Ridge, Hinsdale, Rockford, Washington Park, Westward Ho, Maple Bluff, and a remodel with James and Robert Foulis at Onwentsia.

The work on the nine hole Belmont Course in 1892 became the original location of Chicago Golf Club, of which Herbert was a founding member. When the Chicago club moved to Wheaton in 1894, he built a new course at the Belmont links and became the club’s president for three years."

+1 although technically I guess he preceded the classic window for GA. But he "spills" into the conversation nonetheless.

[Dan Moore]

Ian John totally agree Tweedie is greatly under appreciated but he's not really a Golden Age Archie

Before reading the responses I was going to say Braid too. Amazing how many times his name shows up on + courses in the CG.

[Michael George]

I think Stanley Thompson does not get the recognition that he deserves due to most of his work being in Canada.  When you play St. George's in Toronto, you quickly realize that it was designed by a great architect.  It truly is an amazing routing.

Likewise, I don't think William Flynn gets enough recognition.  Most of his courses are in Philadelphia, where the quality of golf is so high, that they don't get the individual acclaim that they deserve.

I also think the question is largely dependent upon where you ask it.  Stanley Thompson is not under appreciated in Canada, but is in the US. Likewise, while Alison may be under appreciated in the US, he is certainly appreciated in Japan.

[Mike Hendren]

While Ross is perhaps the best known I do think he remains underrated, particularly among the cognoscenti who often denigrate his widespread work to being nothing more than the delegation to farmers working off topo'd routings.  You might be surprised to learn that according to Golfweek's rating panel he designed 60 (almost one out of every three) of the top 200 Golden Age golf course in America.  That's staggering.  Similarly his work spans from the stately to the sporty, the championship to the members course, the simply to the complex. 

Imagine the golf landscape if we could squeeze a few hundred courses out of Doak.

Bogey 

[Jon Wiggett]

James Braid for me. Lots of very good second tier clubs about from him.

Jon,

  Is Park Jr more well know by average club member in the UK?  Ross is a household name in the US. 

Here in the UK possibly not. I do not think that as much of Park's designs have survived up to today to be able to judge how good he was in his general work. I chose Braid because there is a significant number of second and lower level courses built on average land with modest budgets that are still intact enough to show the quality of his work and that it is still relevant to the average player of today. I am not aware that Park has such a body of work still remaining intact and so there is no real reason why he should be well known.

Jon

[Pete Lavallee]

Here in Cal. Billy Bell gets a lot of credit for the courses Willie Watson designed; San Diego CC and Balboa Park come to mind.

[Paul Gray]

James Braid for me. Lots of very good second tier clubs about from him.

Jon,

  Is Park Jr more well know by average club member in the UK?  Ross is a household name in the US. 

Here in the UK possibly not. I do not think that as much of Park's designs have survived up to today to be able to judge how good he was in his general work. I chose Braid because there is a significant number of second and lower level courses built on average land with modest budgets that are still intact enough to show the quality of his work and that it is still relevant to the average player of today. I am not aware that Park has such a body of work still remaining intact and so there is no real reason why he should be well known.

Jon

I'd suggest Braid was far better known than Park Jnr, more than anything because he knocked out an awful lot of courses and, as Jon suggested, many were/are everyday courses on everyday land which just happen to be very pleasant to play.

[Tom_Doak]

There have been lots of architects mentioned who are under appreciated, but I will vote my two cents for William Langford.

Outside of Wisconsin and Indiana he is practically unheard of, and he did some really fine work that inspired Pete and Alice Dye, among others.

[Patrick Kiser]

William Watson.  Quite the resume, but rarely talked about.

Of what little is left of his that I've been fortunate enough to see, I've always been impressed by the subtlety of his designs. Wonderful use of ground contours available on hand. He really took advantage of canting as a way to feed one's ball.

A shame so much of his work has disappeared.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Emmet and Hunter come to mind

[Ronald Montesano]

Under-appreciated by whom?

Is there time/space/fan base to appreciate them all as they deserve?

EDITS~

Is this a knee-jerk thread or a Jack Handy one (deep thoughts, for those not in the know)?

So many architects worked in the USA northeast...is it possible to under-appreciate them?

Is it the architect or a particular course that leads to this designation, or are they perpetually linked?

Will consideration ultimately take a 90% respected guy like Ross or MacKenzie to 100%, or will it take a 40% guy like Langford/Moreau to 70%, and which will be deemed the greater rise?

[Chris_Blakely]

My vote is for Devereux Emmet.

[Dan Moore]

There have been lots of architects mentioned who are under appreciated, but I will vote my two cents for William Langford.

Outside of Wisconsin and Indiana he is practically unheard of, and he did some really fine work that inspired Pete and Alice Dye, among others.

Tom Langford would be my US choice as well, but didn't put him ahead of Braid as my pick because Langford is well appreciated, at least on this site. 

Considering their body of work which of those two do you hold in higher regard?  I've only seen Walton Heath and the Braid holes at Deal so don't have much to compare them by. 

[Mitch Hantman]

Joe Burbeck

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Wayne Stiles did the course I grew up on - Norwood Hills. Outside of the East Coast I'm not sure if he did any others in the Midwest. His highest ranked course is Taconic.

From the club's history he was picked to do both courses at Norwood in 1922. At the time I think they thought he was a real up an comer and having the only Stiles course in Missouri would put them on the map.

Not sure if he is underappreciated but he laid out 2 distinct 18 hole course, one at 6,000 yds, (East) and another at 6,700 (West). My favorite was the East, but probably b/c you hit the halfway house 4 times and could order more food.

[Dan Moore]

(Is "Golden Era" post WWI?)

Definitely a Chicago-centric answer, but I would say Herbert J. Tweedie.
Tweedie laid out some incredible courses that were subsequently "redone" by Flynn, Ross, Langford, CBM, etc.

Thanks, Dan Moore, for the following:

"In Cornish and Whitten’s “The Golf Course”, Tweedie was credited with laying out the following courses: Belmont, Bryn Mawr, Exmoor, Homewood (now Flossmoor), Glen View, LaGrange, Midlothian, Park Ridge, Hinsdale, Rockford, Washington Park, Westward Ho, Maple Bluff, and a remodel with James and Robert Foulis at Onwentsia.

The work on the nine hole Belmont Course in 1892 became the original location of Chicago Golf Club, of which Herbert was a founding member. When the Chicago club moved to Wheaton in 1894, he built a new course at the Belmont links and became the club’s president for three years."

The C&W Exmoor attribution to Tweedie in both the case of the original 9 and taking the course to 18 holes has been proven wrong.  Tweedie didn't do anything at Exmoor.

Dave, there is documentation that Tweedie was involved in the original nine holes and the expansion to 18.  The course was significantly rerouted thereafter so not much of Tweedie is left, but a few of the holes today are faithful to the 18 hole routing, if not the original 9. 

[Jud_T]

(Is "Golden Era" post WWI?)

Definitely a Chicago-centric answer, but I would say Herbert J. Tweedie.
Tweedie laid out some incredible courses that were subsequently "redone" by Flynn, Ross, Langford, CBM, etc.

Thanks, Dan Moore, for the following:

"In Cornish and Whitten’s “The Golf Course”, Tweedie was credited with laying out the following courses: Belmont, Bryn Mawr, Exmoor, Homewood (now Flossmoor), Glen View, LaGrange, Midlothian, Park Ridge, Hinsdale, Rockford, Washington Park, Westward Ho, Maple Bluff, and a remodel with James and Robert Foulis at Onwentsia.

The work on the nine hole Belmont Course in 1892 became the original location of Chicago Golf Club, of which Herbert was a founding member. When the Chicago club moved to Wheaton in 1894, he built a new course at the Belmont links and became the club’s president for three years."

The C&W Exmoor attribution to Tweedie in both the case of the original 9 and taking the course to 18 holes has been proven wrong.  Tweedie didn't do anything at Exmoor.

?  I thought he did the front nine?  When did this change?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Vernon Macan fits this bill. Like William Langford, and others, Mr. Macan's work is very regional in scope.

Outside of the Pacific Northwest, he is completely unknown. In the Pacific Northwest, he's the father of course architecture and championship golf - one of the early PNGA champions and designer of the first handful of courses in the region comparable to the best elsewhere.

[Jeff Bergeron]

Alec 'Nipper' Campbell
Red Lawrence

[mark chalfant]

Devereux  Emmet,     along with  William Langford and T.  Moreau,


Langford's inventive routing choices, bunkering schemes, and his green complexes are both bold and inspiring.    Lawsonia, Harrison Hills ,

and his remarkable 9 holes at West Bend, Wisconsin are all worthy of a special trip.

[Tom_Doak]

Langford would be my US choice as well, but didn't put him ahead of Braid as my pick because Langford is well appreciated, at least on this site. 

Considering their body of work which of those two do you hold in higher regard?  I've only seen Walton Heath and the Braid holes at Deal so don't have much to compare them by. 

Braid did not design Walton Heath - Herbert Fowler did - but Braid did design places like St. Enodoc and Pennard as well as his many remodels of classic links.  I would have to put him ahead of Langford, if I believed in ranking architects.  However, I think Braid is 10x more celebrated as an architect by the general public than Langford is.

[Sean_A]

I mentioned Braid because I wanted to stick to archies with a handful of universally highly regarded courses, but Braid's name never gets mentioned as a top 10 or 20 archie.  There are obviously a ton of regional archies (Braid was pretty much a regional archie) who did good work, but perhaps at best only one or two courses make a mild national splash. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Langford would be my US choice as well, but didn't put him ahead of Braid as my pick because Langford is well appreciated, at least on this site. 

Considering their body of work which of those two do you hold in higher regard?  I've only seen Walton Heath and the Braid holes at Deal so don't have much to compare them by. 

 However, I think Braid is 10x more celebrated as an architect by the general public than Langford is.

Which "general public" are you referring to Tom?
I'd say the general public has heard of neither

[Dan Moore]

My bad re: Walton Heath.  Too strong an association with Walton Heath in my mind and remember walking by his shop on the way to the first tee. 

[Niall C]

Jeff

I think Tom is absolutely spot on about Braid. He’s about the only GCA your average golfer in the UK could name with the possible exception of MacKenzie, albeit his enduring fame is perhaps as much to do with his record as a golfer. I’d suggest he tends to get more praise from the golfing public (if club websites are anything to go by) than he does from the GCA cognoscenti.

Sean

If Braid was a regional GCA then I suspect there can’t be more than a handful of GCA’s back then that could truthfully say they were more than a regional GCA. MacKenzie would have to be one and perhaps Colt although his US output is hardly extensive. Who else is there ? Simpson – UK and Europe (as did Colt).

Looking at it another way, would you count Donald Ross as regional given his output was almost entirely in the US ?

Niall