Level of sub's increase at private members clubs

[Thomas Dai]

I had an interesting conversation the other day with a fellow golfer, not a top player, just your average level handicapper, but importantly, a member at a private members club.

He was commenting, sorry moaning, about life and golf in general so I asked him "How much would the subscriptions at your private members club have to increase by before you'd give up being a member?".

Fair play to him, he paused for a long time and then said "I've been a member here about 40 years. All my mates are members, much of my non-golf social life revolves around the club. I'm retired, I want exercise and fresh air and I don't want to go shopping every day with the Mrs or sit in the house in front of the TV or in a shed in the garden, so I reckon the subs could increase to 5 or even 10 times their current level and I'd still stay a member."

This is though UK private members golf, not pay-n-pay golf nor pay-n-play with a membership scheme attached nor is the individual someone who's sussed out how to get regular cheap golf via a website tee-time operator. Nevertheless, the response was an interesting one.

Any thoughts?

atb

[Brent Hutto]

My monthly dues are probably already 5x to 10x what your member friend is paying.

[Mike Hendren]

Thomas, please post his financial statement and let us know whether it is individual or joint.

Bogey

[David_Tepper]

Thomas D. -

I think the fellow you are quoting is exaggerating more than a little bit. Either that or his opinion is rather singular.

Granted, dues/subscriptions at private clubs in GB&I are very low compared to golf clubs just anywhere else in the world. But my guess is an increase of 5 or 10 times the annual subs at a club there would reduce the number of members by 50% to 80% or more.

DT     

[John Kavanaugh]

It is rarely about what you pay and more about what others don't. There are a few of us rubes left willing to subsidize the up and coming "new" golfers. Good luck when we are gone.

When the Outpost club was recently profiled in Golf Digest as a great club I had several people ask me why I still pay dues at one of their participating clubs. My last best answer was the same as your friends. Tick, tock, I'm about done.

I sincerely was fine with the Outpost until they rubbed it in my face in a national publication. It was a win/win when it was behind closed doors. Now I hope they and every course affiliated with them fails. This is what happens when you openly screw over your members in search for a few, very few, quick bucks.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thomas,

I think it varies enormously from club to club. In my part of Cheshire there are several older members' clubs and they can continue to call for joining fees of ca twice the annual sub and remain full. Interestingly most new members come from the proprietary section, where they get different financial deals, but it seems they want the traditions and habits of an old members' club. There is much fluidity and many unfortunate old members' clubs are in difficulty. They can't maintain their aura, dignity or call it what you will.

Your big problem comes when the roof has to be replaced or the course re-designed because of health and safety - or (as has happened recently) an inspector calls to enquire of the secretary what the club is doing to recruit new members from the Black and Asian community. The club in question responded that anyone was allowed to apply for membership. The reply was, 'What are you doing POSITIVELY to recruit Blacks, Asians and ethnic minorities.' We wait to see the result when this comes to court.

[Rich Goodale]

My home club in the UK could replace 100 members @ £500/year with 1000 "social" members at £50/year in an instant, if they had a clue how to run a small business (which is what golf clubs are, and what they are incapable of doing).   This would free up tee times and fill the lounge and its world-class views with paying customers, but.......

At the high end, places like Dornoch could double or triple their subs, but they would lose most of the locals and end up with a clubhouse that  was even more empty than it is all but a few days of the golfing year.

Swings and roundabouts.....

[Adrian_Stiff]

We had a member a few months back and he suggested that the subscriptions be doubled and make everything better. I said to him I thought 90% would leave. At 5 or 10 times, a current £800 subscription would be £4,000 or £8,000. Could all his friends afford the same?

The problem why many people leave a club is because their friends left. It can be a variety of reasons why that person left but one leaving can  lead to another. My friends in the pub use to take three tee times every Saturday morning around 9.30. All members, playing in the week on an evening in the summer. 1 joined another club because his 11 mates dropped out over 3 or 4 years he had a couple of friends at another club. The 11 play 4 times a year, mainly by having a trip to Spain or Portugal at a £1000 in the winter.

Every club is going to be different but saying you have 500 members, 250 really love being a member 250 its a season ticket.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I admit to being in the dark on "subscriptions" in the UK. I only know of the U.S monthly dues system that are at least $350/month for an average course in the wrong part of town.

How can private clubs exist over there on $1500/yr? ( assuming a pound is roughly double the dollar). Lot of members, low maintenance, meager facilities?

I ask b/c I'm trying to figure out why that couldn't work in the U.S. I would love to start a club based on the U.K. model.

[Brent Hutto]

From my observation of the clubs I've visited, typical staffing levels at UK clubs (small, local clubs not the big-name Open venues and such) are maybe 1/4 or less of the staffing at an equivalent USA club. I had the impression on, for instance, a Tuesday visit to Reddish Vale there may not have been more than a handful of all kinds of staff present on the property. That same day back home there were probably 6 guys on the greenskeeping crew, 3 guys in the pro shop, 3 folks in the kitchen, a bar tender, a dining room server, a couple of kids schlepping people back and forth between the parking lot and pro shop and maybe another person or two I can't think of.

Labor costs are a huge component of golf club expenditures. Smaller UK clubs expect basically someone tending the counter at the pro shop, someone tending bar and a couple of guys cutting grass. USA clubs expect all sorts of employees around seven days a week.

[Rich Goodale]

I admit to being in the dark on "subscriptions" in the UK. I only know of the U.S monthly dues system that are at least $350/month for an average course in the wrong part of town.

How can private clubs exist over there on $1500/yr? ( assuming a pound is roughly double the dollar). Lot of members, low maintenance, meager facilities?

I ask b/c I'm trying to figure out why that couldn't work in the U.S. I would love to start a club based on the U.K. model.

Ryan

You start out with zero capital costs, as the land was gifted to you by lord somebody 100+ years ago.  Then, you realize that  you can maintain the property minimalistically, as it largely heals itself over the 8-month or so playing season and the winter period of rest .  Finally you have a clubhouse that doesn't pretend to be Gleneagles, but serves basic (but good) food with cheap beer and wine (the club rakes off the meager profits).  Over the ewiinter season, ylou make sure that your clubhouse is a friendly man-cave/women-coven/non-gender happy place to be.

Rich

[David_Tepper]

Ryan H. -

In addition to Brent's & Rich's comments, many private golf clubs in GB&I generate substantial income over the course of the year by making their course available for visitor play on a daily fee basis. There some private clubs in GB&I that receive visitor green fee revenue in excess of one million pounds over the course a year. Granted, there are likely less than 100 clubs that fall into that category.

None the less, allowing and encouraging visitor play is another way private golf clubs in GB&I differ from those in the U.S. and elsewhere.

DT

[BHoover]

Don't most clubs in the UK typically have more members than most clubs in the US? Seems to be the case that most US clubs are predicated on having ~300 golfing members, which, in addition to the costs and services (whether needed or not) raised by other posters, necessarily means that dues tend to be higher than clubs with more members and fewer capital and labor costs.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Ryan H. -

In addition to Brent's & Rich's comments, many private golf clubs in GB&I generate substantial income over the course of the year by making their course available for visitor play on a daily fee basis. There some private clubs in GB&I that receive visitor green fee revenue in excess of one million pounds over the course a year. Granted, there are likely less than 100 clubs that fall into that category.

None the less, allowing and encouraging visitor play is another way private golf clubs in GB&I differ from those in the U.S. and elsewhere.

DT

Are most of these visitors from America?

[Brent Hutto]

Unless you're talking "checklist" clubs, the bulk of visitors at UK club are local societies and walk-up visitors. There are 100's of clubs in the UK who will not have more than a handful of USA visitors per year if that.

P.S. By "local" I mean from within the UK rather than from overseas.

[BCowan]

It is rarely about what you pay and more about what others don't. There are a few of us rubes left willing to subsidize the up and coming "new" golfers. Good luck when we are gone.

When the Outpost club was recently profiled in Golf Digest as a great club I had several people ask me why I still pay dues at one of their participating clubs. My last best answer was the same as your friends. Tick, tock, I'm about done.

I sincerely was fine with the Outpost until they rubbed it in my face in a national publication. It was a win/win when it was behind closed doors. Now I hope they and every course affiliated with them fails. This is what happens when you openly screw over your members in search for a few, very few, quick bucks.

''It is rarely about what you pay and more about what others don't. There are a few of us rubes left willing to subsidize the up and coming "new" golfers. Good luck when we are gone.''

   That isn't all true.  You probably are the type that require more service.  You can have a million dollar maint. budget and $200 a month dues if you don't have an outlandish clubhouse and people picking up after you.  Some of the best of the best yearly membership dues are next to nothing.  They have a great course, they don't need to have outlandish clubhouses and all the other foo foo.  When you are all gone, just maybe we will return to the ''Spirit of the Game'', instead of Social status clubs.   

[David_Tepper]

"Are most of these visitors from America?"

Ryan H. -

I would guess that many of the visitors at the big name clubs in GB&I are from the U.S. However, many visitors come from elsewhere in GB&I as well. Over the past 11 years I have been spending time in the Scottish Highlands, I am seeing more and more visiting golfers from continental Europe and Scandinavia.

In addition, in GB&I there are "golfing societies" that travel about and have outings as visitors to various clubs.

DT    

[Adrian_Stiff]

Our climate is what makes golf so much cheaper.

[Paul Gray]

I admit to being in the dark on "subscriptions" in the UK. I only know of the U.S monthly dues system that are at least $350/month for an average course in the wrong part of town.

How can private clubs exist over there on $1500/yr? ( assuming a pound is roughly double the dollar). Lot of members, low maintenance, meager facilities?

I ask b/c I'm trying to figure out why that couldn't work in the U.S. I would love to start a club based on the U.K. model.

Essentially, because American preconceived notions of quality are not only misplaced but unrealistic. Without wishing to misrepresent him, Tom Doak has been saying much the same for some time.

In Britain, I'm afraid to say that we have an ever growing band of golfers that can talk about nothing other than conditioning, and they don't mean it in an educated, architectural sense. For this very reason, many of these people find themselves unhappy members at lesser private or proprietary clubs, clubs where they look at Augusta ever April and wonder how they can replicate the same for £800 (circa $1,200) per year. Simple answer, of course, is that they can't. That won't stop the impenetrably ignorant however from moaning that the greens aren't holding or that the rough looks a bit, well, rough.

And this is why if you find yourself in Britain you are better off either treating yourself to green fees at top tier or second tier clubs or, as a very pleasant cheap and cheerful alternative, go to a local track which has too little money to mess anything up too badly.

The really good clubs which really 'get it' can provide genuinely good conditions by focusing on those famed firm and fast conditions and general playability. The local 'gems' will be rudimentary affairs but you can pretty much guarantee that they won't have fairways which look like they've been cut by drunk teenagers studying for a degree in art and there won't be a fountain or sprinkler in sight. Humble golf is usually good golf.

Essentially, if you focus on golf, rather than artificial aesthetics, you can do good golf on any budget in Britain. Eye candy however is never an efficient undertaking.  

[Chris DeToro]

Our climate is what makes golf so much cheaper.

There's a large portion of the US in which golf is a 4-5 month, at best, sport

[Paul Gray]

Our climate is what makes golf so much cheaper.

There's a large portion of the US in which golf is a 4-5 month, at best, sport

Whilst Adrian is absolutely right, many of you from foreign shores would be shocked by some of the mud baths which pass as golf courses over here in the winter. It isn't the picture you get from this site because, quite understandably, the vast majority of focus is on good courses.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Our climate ranges from say zero to 25, with the amount of rainfall we dont need 1000 sprinkler heads, huge storage lagoons for the water and a pair of plumbers to make the repairs. We fertilise and cut for maybe 6/7 months of the year. for 5 months its all pretty dormant. The greens were hewn from what was there 100 years ago in many cases. Those make big savings. The US model could still get nearer to ours price wise though.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan H. -

In addition to Brent's & Rich's comments, many private golf clubs in GB&I generate substantial income over the course of the year by making their course available for visitor play on a daily fee basis. There some private clubs in GB&I that receive visitor green fee revenue in excess of one million pounds over the course a year. Granted, there are likely less than 100 clubs that fall into that category.

None the less, allowing and encouraging visitor play is another way private golf clubs in GB&I differ from those in the U.S. and elsewhere.

DT

Are most of these visitors from America?

No. I'll play any number of course in the space of a year and, being that I won't likely be in a golfing tourist hotspot, might well not see a single foreign visitor. This is perfectly normal over here. I would guess the average club member in Britain would maybe play, say, five other clubs per year. Multiply that by every member in the country and you've got a fair bit of income. Sean Arble alone has been known to keep entire county golf unions afloat with his green fees. 

[John Kavanaugh]

There are more courses in the US with dues less than $1000 per year than in the UK. I'm a member of two of them.

[Rob Marshall]

Our climate is what makes golf so much cheaper.

I live in upstate NY. My monthly dues with tax is close to $500 per month. I also have a food minimum of $1000 annually. The course is typically playable from 4/1 thru 11/15. I was shocked when I was Ireland and Northern Ireland when members told me how cheap it was to join clubs like Royal County Down and Portrush. I assumed it was cheap because of the guys like me paying $250 greens fees.