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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
First of all, let me share a story.  I recently resigned my membership from Kinloch GC in Manakin-Sabot, VA.  It would be hard to imagine a better all around club, and I am grateful for their hospitality.  Here is my affectionate goodbye letter to Kinloch.

 :D

Kinloch GC:  3rd Hole, 540 yards, par 5 — 'Marital Discord'

The 3rd hole is part of the easy opening stretch of holes at Kinloch.  It helps to get off to a fast start at Kinloch, as the middle of the course is very difficult.  After two mid-length par 4s, the 3rd hole traverses a broad ridge, so that most well-struck drives fly up and over the top.  The hole turns gently right and consistently downhill to a wide, shallow green, that slopes from back to front, with a few subtle internal contours.  The green is guarded by sand bunkers left of the green, and a small pond that guards the right half of the green.  The pond was created a few years ago, because the swampy natural tributary was a bit too dangerous and messy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNKrmdL10y0

Strategically, the 3rd hole is perhaps the least interesting hole on the course for me.  There is a speed slot, and a big hitter like multiple club champion (and GCA member) Sam Sikes can bomb driver down the right side, and leave himself a 220-240 yard approach.   A player of his ability can hit a lofted wood or hybrid from the downhill lie with confidence.  But out of maybe 70-90 lifetime rounds, I was only in position to try for the green 2-3 times.  The landing area short of the pond is very wide, and the second shot for your typical low to mid-handicapper is mundane.  9 out of 10 times I’m hitting driver and then 4-7 iron, playing for a desired remaining distance.  Then it’s wedge right at the pin, with little worry, and hope I can get close.  The green is gentle by Kinloch standards, but a delicate touch is always required, especially on downhill putts.

About three years ago, I traveled to Richmond to play a week's worth of golf at Kinloch, a yearly tradition of practicing and getting ready for the golf season.  It’s a great time to visit.  The course is awake from a winter slumber, but aeration doesn’t happen until May, and the weather tends to be cool and dry.  It’s one of the few times during the year where one might catch the fairways playing fast and firm.



Over the weekend of that visit, I hosted two golfing couples, friends of ours, a couple of days apart.  For the purpose of this discussion, these couples will be referred to as Couple #1 and Couple #2.

Women play the 3rd hole at about 430 yards.  Couple #1 are both very good, younger players.  Husband #1 is about a 6-8 handicap, and Wife #1 is a medium-strong 15-20 handicapper who can hit it 150-160 yards off the tee, maybe 180 if she catches one.    I played with couple #1 alone in a threesome, and my wife took the day off. Wife #1 hits a pretty solid drive into the fairway, followed by a pretty solid fairway wood down the hill, where she has about 145 yards left, from a downhill lie, to the center of the green.  After consulting with her caddie, Wife #1 pulls a 5-wood out of her bag, whereupon Husband #1 volunteers his belief that perhaps she should lay up short of the pond.  Wife #1 mutters something under her breath, scowls briefly, and then pushes a low liner into the center of the pond.

It’s hard to overestimate how comical the next minute and a half went.  I can’t remember the exact exchange, but it went something like this:

“Told you.”
“Yeah, why don’t you fuck off.”
“You fuck off.  I told you.”
“Yeah, we’ll see what good that does you later.”

While I’m watching this amazing display occurring, for whatever reason I’m not intimidated or worried.  It wasn’t scary; you just felt this is how they resolve things.  It was like the Saturday Night Live characters from Boston, Sully and Zazu.  You half expected them to embrace in a violent display of affection for one another, and start rolling around the 3rd fairway at Kinloch.



It was pretty quiet for a couple of holes afterwards, but things lightened up, and a good day was had by all.

My wife Cheryl joined me to play with Couple #2, who we know a bit better.  Couple #2 are both very good, older players.  Husband #2 is about a 4-6 handicap, and Wife #2 is a medium-strong 12-16 handicapper who can hit it 150-160 yards off the tee, maybe 180 if she catches one. Wife #2 hits a pretty solid drive into the fairway, followed by a pretty solid fairway wood down the hill, where she has about 145 yards left, from a downhill lie, to the center of the green.  After consulting with her caddie, Wife #2 pulls a 3-wood out of her bag, whereupon Husband #2 volunteers his belief that perhaps she should lay up short of the pond.  Wife #2 reaffirms that she can make this shot, and then pushes a low liner into the center of the pond.

The aftermath of this interaction was a bit darker and quieter.  The tension in the air was palpable, only made worse ten minutes later, by Husband #2 instructing Wife #2 how to properly hit a chip shot short of the 4th green.  Cheryl and I are now talking quietly to ourselves on the other side of the fairways while Couple #2 works things out, and I’m telling Cheryl the same damn thing happened just two days ago.  For a while, it seemed things would never lighten up, and we weren’t sure we were having fun, but then Cheryl said to me:

“Didn’t that exact same thing happen to us, too?”
“Yes dear, I believe you’re right.”

At that point things started to get better, and a good day was had by all.  I hereby designate the 3rd hole at Kinloch GC as the Hole of Marital Discord.

Thought On Approach Shots From A Downhill Lie

Playing from a downhill lie is tough.  It’s hard to judge the distance properly.  It’s hard to get the ball airborne.  A downhill lie can be a shank lie, as it is easy to slide forward on the way down.  Most importantly, I have to aim left from a downhill lie, as I reliably push downhill lie shots to the right of where I’m aimed.  It depends a lot whether you are a natural fade or draw player on how well you handle these.

Mostly I wanted to share the story of Marital Discord on the golf course.

I’d like to know what everyone thinks about downhill lies, and especially how the architects and designers accommodate their existence in course design.  I get the feeling some effort is made to minimize shots off downhill lies.  Of all the really good courses I’ve played, Kinloch GC happens to have a large number of regular shots off downhill lies.  Typically, I will approach the green off a downhill lie on #1, #3, #4, #6, #8, #11, and #13; perhaps half of these shots have significantly downward tilt.  In every case, those steep downhill shots are really hard, especially when water is in play.  The Kinloch design lends itself to downhill lies, because architect Lester George (with the great Vinnie Giles) chose to route many long holes up and over the broad ridges as described previously.

Perhaps the most famous downhill lie in golf is the third shot at Augusta National’s 15th hole.  Looks easy, but even the pros struggle with it.  In my golf universe, perhaps my favorite downhill lie shot is the 18th hole at Stanford University GC, though I hardly ever play there anymore.  I believe a great course should be a comprehensive test of golf ability.  We’ve previously established that many great courses feature uphill approach shots, but little is said about downhill lies on great courses.

How do our designers accommodate their existence?      
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 02:06:10 PM by John Kirk »

Charlie Ray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 09:03:40 PM »
John,  thanks for the stories of marital discord,  thankfully i don't have to worry about that.  ( I did have the extreme misfortune of playing behind a 'divorce tournament' two weeks ago.  A fivesome of couples (yes, 10 in a group)  in which the men would play the first and second shots on all holes and the wives play the ball till holed.  To be honest it seemed like they were having a ball,  but it is miserable sitting in the middle of the 6th fairway and having TEN people stand on the green)

Judging from the lack of downhill approaches it seems that architects avoid them at nearly all cost.  I've never really thought about how rare they are, but in the 4 courses i play most regularly I only recall two such shots. One being the second shot on a par 5 that is universally loathed at my club.  

So to continue your thoughts,   why so few downhill lie approach shots?  
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:17:45 PM by Charlie Ray »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 04:08:29 AM »
I don't like catching downhiller, who does...but I do like the idea of downhill lies.  Downhillers should be an important strategy for a hillyish course an even flatter ones with a sly lie chucked in here and there.  I know a lot of Ross courses feature the possibility of downhillers if one isn't quite strong enough to reach the flat.  Usually, there is an option to lay back to the crest of a rise.  I reckon there aren't enough decisions like this on courses today.  Note how people describe these holes as ones with speed slots...this is a green light/smash mouth golf description.  Bottom line, if people want elevation change on courses, they must accept downhillers.  The real question is how do the green accommodate these shots?

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 06:12:51 AM »
John, thanks for the story. At my young age I've already ended a couple relationships do to golf and that had nothing to do with actually golfing with my wife/girlfriend. More with them getting in the way of my selfish desire to accept exotic invites that in my heart I believed they should understand.  ;D I know the treehouse certainly would....

As for downhill lies, I think every course should have them no doubt. In fact, I'd prefer to see very little flat lies anyplace outside of the driving range. My home course has few flat lies and quite a number of possible downhill lies. However, they are mostly downhill and sidehill lies and I think that's fine. Golf should be (can also be) about being creative, nothing says a ball must have a certain trajectory when it comes off the club face or that it has to go into the air at all. Give me a shorter course with no flat lies and heavy wind as opposed to a long flat course with no wind every time I go out to play and I'll be a happy man.
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Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 11:59:29 AM »
John,

As usual, a very good subject for discussion. As for avoiding an extreme downhill situation I'm reminded of Ballybunion #11 or Fircrest #2; grading an extreme downslope to three distinct terraces. This works well in these situations as the next shot is usually a long one. I don't personally mind a shot off a downslope with a short iron in hand, as you mentioned it is a very difficult shot for even a good golfer who doesn't have a lot of clubhead speed to get the ball up in the air off that lie. The few shots like that here in SD are #4 at Singing Hills and #5 at Torrey North. Both greens have a distinct back to front slope to help a lower shot stop somewhere near the flag.

As for marital discord, my favorite instruction book, Extraordinary Golf the Art of the Possible by Fred Shumaker has an excellent chapter on coaching one's spouse or significant other. He recommends having a guideline of you keeping your big mouth shut unless your spouse specifically asks to be coached. She should also say how long you should coach her for, for instance help me for the rest of this hole or speak up anytime I do something wrong. It certainly helps to keep the peace, nothing pisses off someone who is already in a foul mood more than unsolicited advise!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 12:33:44 PM »
There is a golf course in the Portland area who creates an interesting strategy related to downhill lies.

The hole is a par 4, in the range of about 340.  About 100 yds in front of the green (so 240 out) is a wetlands, marsh, ditch type crossing.  Big ugly one.

Your natural inclination is to pull a 3 wood, and hit it right up to the edge of the crossing.  However, that's often the complete wrong play if you hate downhill lies.  Moreover, the fairway begins to slope down hill about 60-70 yds before the crossing, so the further you hit down the fairway the more your ball moves downhill.

There is a good chance you will have better success getting the ball in the air and clearing the gunk from 160 yds with a flat lie than 100 out with a down hill lie.  In that case the play is hit a 180 yd drive.  Great strategy and a case of how you make a short par 4 play longer than the scorecard indicates.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 12:34:33 PM »
The worst is a downhill lie on an uphill shot with a long iron.  As a rule of thumb it's one of those things I look to avoid in design, gladly grading an otherwise perfectly rolling fairway on long par 4 holes to minimize it.

It is important to realize just how much downhill lies and uphill shots hurt those 140 yards hitting females.  Just kills their distance, and should be factored into any forward tee location.

As to helping my wife in similar situation, I would probably say we didn't come all this way to lay up, and if she started thinking about it, maybe she would get my point without me being in the doghouse.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt Bielawa

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 01:03:04 PM »
John,

As usual, a very good subject for discussion. As for avoiding an extreme downhill situation I'm reminded of Ballybunion #11 or Fircrest #2; grading an extreme downslope to three distinct terraces. This works well in these situations as the next shot is usually a long one. I don't personally mind a shot off a downslope with a short iron in hand, as you mentioned it is a very difficult shot for even a good golfer who doesn't have a lot of clubhead speed to get the ball up in the air off that lie. The few shots like that here in SD are #4 at Singing Hills and #5 at Torrey North. Both greens have a distinct back to front slope to help a lower shot stop somewhere near the flag.

As for marital discord, my favorite instruction book, Extraordinary Golf the Art of the Possible by Fred Shumaker has an excellent chapter on coaching one's spouse or significant other. He recommends having a guideline of you keeping your big mouth shut unless your spouse specifically asks to be coached. She should also say how long you should coach her for, for instance help me for the rest of this hole or speak up anytime I do something wrong. It certainly helps to keep the peace, nothing pisses off someone who is already in a foul mood more than unsolicited advise!

Ah....

Memories of playing Fircrest with Pete.

A word to the wise.  Wear a helmet when playing in front of this big hitter!

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 01:11:28 PM »
There is a golf course in the Portland area who creates an interesting strategy related to downhill lies.

The hole is a par 4, in the range of about 340.  About 100 yds in front of the green (so 240 out) is a wetlands, marsh, ditch type crossing.  Big ugly one.

Your natural inclination is to pull a 3 wood, and hit it right up to the edge of the crossing.  However, that's often the complete wrong play if you hate downhill lies.  Moreover, the fairway begins to slope down hill about 60-70 yds before the crossing, so the further you hit down the fairway the more your ball moves downhill.

There is a good chance you will have better success getting the ball in the air and clearing the gunk from 160 yds with a flat lie than 100 out with a down hill lie.  In that case the play is hit a 180 yd drive.  Great strategy and a case of how you make a short par 4 play longer than the scorecard indicates.



There's a subtle hole I really like here in the Phoenix area that has a similar kind of decision, but without the hazard. #4 at Trilogy Vistancia (Gary Panks).

The hole is about 360 from the back, 340 from the white tees. Not a long hole and plays to a pretty wide fairway, though much of the landing area is blind. There's a bunker running down the right side of the fairway. A drive of 230 or so gets past this bunker to the part of the fairway that really opens up wide (about 55 yards wide, whereas along the bunker the fairway is just less than 30 yards). Hit that shot and you're leaving yourself with probably under 100 yards in. So the temptation to pull driver is strong--you get close to the green, past trouble, to a wide fairway.

But that approach also means your drive will finish on a slight downslope. It's not significant, certainly not significant enough that you could expect anything but the longest drive to actually run to the bottom of the hill (about 30 yards short of the green, which is raised slightly). The green has a big deep bunker front left and is vaguely triangular with several tiers and bunkers surrounding. So a well struck drive might leave you only 80-100 yards in, but from a tricky downhill lie when you need to get the ball up to get over the front bunker and stop it quickly on a green that plays small.

Or you can lay back to a tighter fairway (but by no means hard to hit), leave yourself a longer shot in, but from a level lie.

It's an excellent bit of subtlety that even those who have played the hole many times may not immediately recognize. And even if they do, the right choice depends on how you're striking the ball, where the pin is, how firm the conditions are, and a host of other factors. Good subtle little concept.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 01:40:17 PM »
Being married, especially to a golfer, is "Life with a Sideways Lie."
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 02:08:32 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 03:01:53 PM »
“Yeah, we’ll see what good that does you later.”

Wife #1 deserves a thumbs-up simply for making her sentiments so clear and explicit. No bones about it, no misleading "nothing's wrong", no chance for Husband #1 to misunderstand or to entertain any false hopes of a quick resolution, just a respectfully direct and honest promise of the long, drawn-out miseries to come!

Very good post, JK, thanks. You seem to have raised your already considerable game to new levels!

Peter




Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 03:10:23 PM »
Much of married life entails hitting short iron shots from downhill lies and tight turf to a well-defended green.  Get over it, John.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 03:39:23 PM »
In general, I love playing courses with elevation changes, and some would say, extreme elevation changes.  So I am used to seeing my share of uneven lies.

Where I most seem to notice the slight downhill lie is on reachable par 5s.  One of the more prolific architects in Western New York, Williams Harries, designed many 1/2 par 5s where I've noticed a slight downhill tilt in the 200-230 yard range.  Thus, the distance isn't an issue, but the slight doubt created by a downhill lie for a 3-Wood / Hybrid / Long Iron shot helps provide the challenge without the need to stretch the course.  Sometimes there's situations where I have to consider if it's better to have a flat shot from 240 vs a downhill lie from 210 and this makes the tee shot decision more interesting.

Even on the Ballyhack thread that's running currently, we've had discussions of certain landing areas which feature slight downhill lies (or ball below feet lies), with some of the most prominent to me being #9, #10, and #15.

What I find more interesting are fairways that roll enough to only feature a slight downhill lie on one section of the fairway.  So while a fairway may appear to be 50 yards wide, it's really the 15 yards on the right that you want to hit to find the level spot.  At my home course, sometimes the "go/no go" decision is a matter of the ball being 5 yards left or right in the fairway.



As for Marital Discord on the course, my wife tried the game for a while.  But when we started discussing the 40-80 yard game, she struggled with the change from a full swing to the feel aspects of the game.  I would tell her to take an abbreviated backswing and just "Pop It." Then I would demonstrate for her while repeating "Pop It" in my downswing.  

Finally, after 4 or 5 holes, I reminded her to "Pop It" yet again, when she dropped the club and said "You keep saying that, but I have no fuckin' idea what you mean by Pop It!"  

She no longer golfs, but whenever it seems we're talking past each other, one of us will jokingly yell the phrase "Pop It!" to remind the other they may need to rephrase their point.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 04:29:52 PM »

As for marital discord, my favorite instruction book, Extraordinary Golf the Art of the Possible by Fred Shumaker has an excellent chapter on coaching one's spouse or significant other. He recommends having a guideline of you keeping your big mouth shut unless your spouse specifically asks to be coached. She should also say how long you should coach her for, for instance help me for the rest of this hole or speak up anytime I do something wrong. It certainly helps to keep the peace, nothing pisses off someone who is already in a foul mood more than unsolicited advise!

Only slightly less dangerous is throwing out a "there you go" when your steaming spouse finally hits a halfway decent shot.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 04:31:09 PM »
“Yeah, we’ll see what good that does you later.”

Wife #1 deserves a thumbs-up simply for making her sentiments so clear and explicit. No bones about it, no misleading "nothing's wrong", no chance for Husband #1 to misunderstand or to entertain any false hopes of a quick resolution, just a respectfully direct and honest promise of the long, drawn-out miseries to come!

Very good post, JK, thanks. You seem to have raised your already considerable game to new levels!

Peter

John, sounds like husbands #1 and #2 are both skilled players, but that neither are golfers.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 04:42:25 PM »

Much of married life entails hitting short iron shots from downhill lies and tight turf to a well-defended green.  Get over it, John.


Didn't want this one lost in the shuffle.

Brian Potash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 04:44:49 PM »
I remember that day, but until reading John's post I forgot about that fight. I have had that same fight probably 5-10 times playing with my wife for the last 18+ years.  I don't know why I don't just shut the fu*k up!  

Husband #1

P.S -  appreciate you calling me a 6-8 handicap

Brian

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 06:08:40 PM »
It seems the formula for shots of marital discord works out to something like: overconfidence bias in Player A, so blatantly obvious to Player A's spouse that said spouse can't shut up. It's sort of like Hitchcock's definition of suspense: the audience sees all too clearly what's about to happen to the main character (who is clueless).

So what other types of holes / shots produce these sorts of cognitive gaps?

Also, submitted for an entirely different branch of marital discord root-cause analysis: mixed foursomes aka "divorcesomes".
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2014, 04:53:00 PM »

As for Marital Discord on the course, my wife tried the game for a while.  But when we started discussing the 40-80 yard game, she struggled with the change from a full swing to the feel aspects of the game.  I would tell her to take an abbreviated backswing and just "Pop It." Then I would demonstrate for her while repeating "Pop It" in my downswing.  

Finally, after 4 or 5 holes, I reminded her to "Pop It" yet again, when she dropped the club and said "You keep saying that, but I have no fuckin' idea what you mean by Pop It!"  

She no longer golfs, but whenever it seems we're talking past each other, one of us will jokingly yell the phrase "Pop It!" to remind the other they may need to rephrase their point.

John,

As for marital discord, my favorite instruction book, Extraordinary Golf the Art of the Possible by Fred Shumaker has an excellent chapter on coaching one's spouse or significant other. He recommends having a guideline of you keeping your big mouth shut unless your spouse specifically asks to be coached. She should also say how long you should coach her for, for instance help me for the rest of this hole or speak up anytime I do something wrong. It certainly helps to keep the peace, nothing pisses off someone who is already in a foul mood more than unsolicited advise!

These two earned laughter from Mrs. Kirk.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2014, 09:31:41 PM »
“Yeah, we’ll see what good that does you later.”

Wife #1 deserves a thumbs-up simply for making her sentiments so clear and explicit. No bones about it, no misleading "nothing's wrong", no chance for Husband #1 to misunderstand or to entertain any false hopes of a quick resolution, just a respectfully direct and honest promise of the long, drawn-out miseries to come!

Very good post, JK, thanks. You seem to have raised your already considerable game to new levels!

Peter

John, sounds like husbands #1 and #2 are both skilled players, but that neither are golfers.

No, they are skilled, experienced golfers who knew goddamn well that those balls were ending up in the pond. Sometimes a complete understanding of the game of golf overrides a complete understanding of our wives. :)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2014, 10:29:46 PM »
“Yeah, we’ll see what good that does you later.”

Wife #1 deserves a thumbs-up simply for making her sentiments so clear and explicit. No bones about it, no misleading "nothing's wrong", no chance for Husband #1 to misunderstand or to entertain any false hopes of a quick resolution, just a respectfully direct and honest promise of the long, drawn-out miseries to come!

Very good post, JK, thanks. You seem to have raised your already considerable game to new levels!

Peter

John, sounds like husbands #1 and #2 are both skilled players, but that neither are golfers.

No, they are skilled, experienced golfers who knew goddamn well that those balls were ending up in the pond. Sometimes a complete understanding of the game of golf overrides a complete understanding of our wives. :)

I have played with my wife for 20+ years and little discord.   I learned early on to offer advice only when asked.   And no eye rolling!

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2014, 11:28:25 PM »
True love: silently watch her line it in the pond...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2014, 10:49:53 AM »
John:

I enjoyed the stories of marital discord.  I had a couple of similar experiences with my ex-wife, who was very competitive and wanted to get better at golf.  I learned over time not to offer advice except when asked.

However, you didn't say as much about the approach shot from a downhill lie as I thought you should.  In fact, I thought after reading your story that the title should be changed to, "The Approach Shot From a Downhill Lie, Over Water".  THAT situation is a disaster in the making, and rightly so. 

But having an approach shot from a downhill lie, where you AREN'T required to get the ball into the air, is another story entirely.  It's a shot that requires great skill to execute properly, but you can often hit a ground-ball bumbler without it costing you too badly.  It is better, of course, if the recovery from the right of the green is more difficult than the recovery from the left, so that the player who was allowing for a fade is rewarded for thinking of it [with apologies to all the left-handed golfers out there].

Stoneham, in England, was noteworthy for having a bunch of long approaches off downhill lies.  So is the older of the two courses at Stonewall, where you usually get downhill lies for the approach shots at #12, 14, 16 and 18, plus the dreaded ball-below-your-feet at #4, 6 and 11.  Interestingly, most of that [apart from the 18th] is actually due to Tom Fazio's original routing.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2014, 11:41:36 AM »
Hi Tom,

Thanks for responding.  I had the 'Hole of Marital Discord' story laying around for a couple years.  This fall I had the idea that perhaps we hadn't discussed approach shots from downhill lies thoroughly, and it's difficult to find unexplored subjects.  I put two and two together, and added the Discord story onto the general subject to get it out there.

I purposely said less about the primary subject of downhill lies for a couple reasons.  One, I did not want to say everything I could think of, leaving ample room for discussion.  Second, I was hoping architects and other thoughtful posters would add their thoughts on the subject.

With that said, I'm not sure what more I can add.  From a downhill lie, water short and right of the green is death for a weaker player, partly because the mechanics of the shot are not well understood.  I push a downhill lie shot a high percentage of the time.  Perhaps 10% of the time I'll make a perfect pass and hit it straight, which means it will end up left of the objective.  And maybe 15-20% of the time I will mishit it badly, resulting in a sliced, topped or rarely, a shanked shot.  Naturally, mishits occur more when using a longer club.

For me, it's easier to make solid contact on an uphill lie, though pulled and/or hooked shots are common, and often result in severely misdirected shots.  This may be a matter of my swing plane, and the fact I tend to hit from the inside out.  25 years ago, I faded the ball exclusively, and it seems to me downhill lies may have been easier back then.  How you swing the club matters greatly on the "ball above feet" or "ball below feet" lies, where it seems the typical swing plane makes a big difference.  When the ball is below my feet, I try my best to put a fade swing on the ball.

I was curious whether course designers try to avoid the downhill lie approach.  In your case, I imagine it's part of the routing consideration, but after that, as a minimalist you'll typically let the existing ground dictate the shot.  Other designers might be inclined to manipulate the ground to create flatter terraces for the approach.  In all cases, the downhill lie can be frustrating and demoralizing for the player, and I don't think you want too many of them.

I was also hoping that designers might offer their opinion on the size and slope of the green on holes that play from a downhill lie.  Do you add a little extra back to front tilt to help the player hold the green?  Questions of this sort.

Jason Topp

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Re: The Approach Shot From A Downhill Lie, and The Hole of Marital Discord
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2014, 03:57:46 PM »
Wouldn't a hole with a pond in front of the green normally involve a downhill shot if the land is left alone?  Water runs downhill. 

We have a hole on my course where a good drive often leaves me a shot from 150-180 off a downhill lie over a pond to a green that seems to play a few yards uphill with water short and right of the green.  The wind makes huge difference on the hole.  Into the wind a good drive can leave me 200 or more yards and downwind it can be a pitching wedge.  I have leaned the hard way that I need to be very conservative with the shot.  I take an extra club, aim to the safer left side and declare victory if I keep the ball dry.  If I feel at all uncomfortable I just lay up. 

For a good player it can be a real birdie hole with a wide fairway, and a short approach to a big green. 

It is kind of a fun hole but it also is a bit like going to the dentist for me.

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