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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2014, 05:12:57 PM »
Ryan I think the problem with having no 'all you can eat deal' is that some customers play so much that it becomes expensive to keep spending the £20 each time, so they end up joining somewhere which for them is the £800 all you can eat.

Ideally you want members paying £800 per year and never playing, or someone playing everyday and paying £20. Neither scenario will happen for too long. I think it is a balance and certainly the UK way you do need some sort of soul and a membership that plays in teams and competitions. Golf is game and competition, winning, losing is all part of that charm.

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Paul Gray

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2014, 05:22:53 PM »
First thing is you need a lot of experience in knowing how to run golf clubs and make a profit. Quite often it is almost anti the GCA likes and ways. Keeping costs to the bone is essential, low staffing, fair pricing, good product and great location.

Absolutely. Not that Adrian needs telling.

The one point I'd perhaps question is the assumption that low costs is anti GCA. It is, after all, not the cheaper courses with no delusions of grandeur that are struggling. The problem, as I've written about at length here before, lies in an overcrowded middle ground where each club tries to outdo the neighbours but literally trying to turn the greens up to eleven. Throw in the maintenance of 200 bunkers where 20 would have done and the time and money wasted cutting silly patterns into four separate cuts of rough and, hello, we're struggling.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2014, 05:37:02 PM »
Ryan I think the problem with having no 'all you can eat deal' is that some customers play so much that it becomes expensive to keep spending the £20 each time, so they end up joining somewhere which for them is the £800 all you can eat.

Ideally you want members paying £800 per year and never playing, or someone playing everyday and paying £20. Neither scenario will happen for too long. I think it is a balance and certainly the UK way you do need some sort of soul and a membership that plays in teams and competitions. Golf is game and competition, winning, losing is all part of that charm.



I know you're right. But as an owner it would irritate me no end seeing blokes play for £3-£4 round and even coming down for a shower when the course is closed!

In a members club the amount of income we say no to is substantial. Sunday societies, weekdays when we have a medal, cant have a function because its whist drive etc - this is all fine, it's the members club. Having to keep a group of members happy when you own the Club and its your living must be a difficult balance.

Members actually playing golf is I believe the biggest factor in the change of fortunes for Clubs in the UK. That and the advent of winter golf.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2014, 05:51:29 PM »
Paul - Low cost encompasses many things, but equally many things that are GCA liked are not cheap. Width for instance is expensive in many places because it involves triple perhaps even quadruple rowed spacing, it is cheap in the UK because the irrigation requirement is zeroed.

Bunkers at £40 a tonne for sand makes you really think if you need that bunker or not. They are also very expensive to rake, cut round, trim, edge.....cut your bunkers out and you will save a lot of money. The great thing about grass bunkers are that they are as difficult to get up and down in two for a good player versus sand bunkers where as the lesser player finds them considerably easier, which is kinda perfect if you want to cater for all standards without making the course a doddle.

Ryan - Yes a few play 100-150 times a year but usually good spenders in the bar, no definite rules and yes you do get a few who irritate.



A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ken Fry

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2014, 06:38:25 PM »

Quite often it is almost anti the GCA likes and ways.


Except for the fortunate few, you get well in tune with the profit built into a hamburger, hot dog or brat than the architectural merits of your facility...

Rob_Waldron

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2014, 10:56:45 AM »
My firm, The National Golf & Resort Properties Group, a Division of Marcus & Millichap Real Estate Investment Services has multiple golf course listings currently being marketed. 

Please visit our website: www.nationalgolfgroup.com or contact me to discuss.

After several years of marketing distressed and REO golf properties we now have several cash flowing properties available. We also have several "turn around" opportunities. Each of these courses is priced well below cost to build new which is one reason we are not seeing many new courses being developed. It is usually less expensive to acquire an existing course and add capital improvements than to build a new course. 

There are some great opportunities for PGA professionals, Superintendents and investor groups who are interested in owning a golf course.



Adam Warren

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2014, 12:43:32 PM »
Here in Kentucky, there is one course in Mt. Sterling that was going to Absolute Auction a week or two ago and I believe a cow farmer bought it, but I do not know the amount.  It was an 18 holer as well. 

In Louisville, one course just shut the doors last winter that is in a subdivision and the owners are having and Aldi built in the front of it, perhaps only affecting the 18th hole.  Another is still open after an owners/homeowners dispute about the sale, but I know they would like to sell it as well.  Both of those courses are semi-private clubs.  Just this year one of the bigger private clubs in town bought another of the private clubs in the suburbs to offer a 2 club deal. 

2 private clubs are owned by some company (not sure the name) and I have heard that one really struggles.  It is in an awful location, really close to Valhalla and within 5-15 minutes of 5 more private clubs and one public course.  There are also a couple others 20-40 minutes outside of Louisville that have been rumored to be closing/selling for years.  If you wanted to own a course in Kentucky, I am certain it could be done fairly easily and not terribly expensive.

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2014, 02:07:07 PM »
Here in Kentucky, there is one course in Mt. Sterling that was going to Absolute Auction a week or two ago and I believe a cow farmer bought it, but I do not know the amount.  It was an 18 holer as well. 

In Louisville, one course just shut the doors last winter that is in a subdivision and the owners are having and Aldi built in the front of it, perhaps only affecting the 18th hole.  Another is still open after an owners/homeowners dispute about the sale, but I know they would like to sell it as well.  Both of those courses are semi-private clubs.  Just this year one of the bigger private clubs in town bought another of the private clubs in the suburbs to offer a 2 club deal. 

2 private clubs are owned by some company (not sure the name) and I have heard that one really struggles.  It is in an awful location, really close to Valhalla and within 5-15 minutes of 5 more private clubs and one public course.  There are also a couple others 20-40 minutes outside of Louisville that have been rumored to be closing/selling for years.  If you wanted to own a course in Kentucky, I am certain it could be done fairly easily and not terribly expensive.

Mt. Sterling CC, sold for $985K and it's likely going to be a cow farm. Old Silo is teetering too... too bad.

Eric Smith

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2014, 03:02:51 PM »
Don't know about prices, but Hilda Allen has several listings:

http://www.hildawallen.com/listings.cfm

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2014, 06:58:04 PM »
Interesting Mattaponi Springs is for sale!

Chris DeToro

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2014, 10:11:19 AM »
Interesting Mattaponi Springs is for sale!

That would be a great pickup. 

I didn't realize Quail Crossing was recently for sale too

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 10:23:25 AM »
Interesting Mattaponi Springs is for sale!

That would be a great pickup. 

I didn't realize Quail Crossing was recently for sale too

I agree on Mattaponi Springs.  I had a really bad experience there (say 5 years ago).  I got the impression that they would rather not have you golf their course to keep it in superb condition.  Course is quite good and on a wonderful piece of property.  It is in the neighborhood where another CCFAD course recently opened that I liked more:  Pendleton GC.

Chris

jeffwarne

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2014, 10:27:47 AM »
Interesting Mattaponi Springs is for sale!

That would be a great pickup. 

I didn't realize Quail Crossing was recently for sale too

I agree on Mattaponi Springs.  I had a really bad experience there (say 5 years ago).  I got the impression that they would rather not have you golf their course to keep it in superb condition.  Course is quite good and on a wonderful piece of property.  It is in the neighborhood where another CCFAD course recently opened that I liked more:  Pendleton GC.

Chris

I guess "Golf as it's meant to be played" isn't profitable.
I know nothing about Mattaponi, but every time I hear that marketing phrase I want to puke.
It's the  modern equivalent of "Championship Course"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Chris DeToro

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2014, 10:37:17 AM »
Mattaponi is in a decent spot traffic wise and the course looks solid from the pictures (I've never played there).  Gimmicky marketing is exactly that--I'm not a huge fan of needed catch phrases for golf courses either

Steve_ Shaffer

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« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 10:30:17 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Nigel Islam

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2014, 11:09:36 PM »
Interesting Mattaponi Springs is for sale!

That would be a great pickup. 

I didn't realize Quail Crossing was recently for sale too

Quail has been in awful shape the two times I have played it post sale. At least I played well both times.

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Golf courses for sale (on the cheap)?
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2014, 06:28:09 PM »
Update on Mt. Sterling: Apparently the new owner is interested in keeping it a golf course for the time being. So not NLE yet (stay tuned.)