Players tees

[Rob Marshall]

Wouldn't it make sense for courses to have "players"tees? As an example Innisbrook copperhead is 6624 from the green tees. Next set of tees, the  blacks at 7209. It's a par 71 with 5 par 3's. Why not creat a combination on the card with a rating and slope of its own where you play the greens on some holes and the blacks on others. 600 yards between the last set of tees seems like too much.

Interesting note, when I was on the practice green at Streamsong I heard a caddie on the first tee of the Red telling his group that a lot if players play one set of tees on the front and then move up a set on the back because of its so much longer than the front. Not that it's a big deal but how do you post that?

[PCCraig]

Why would I want to hit the same one or two clubs on every approach. That's all you end up doing on "mixed" tees as short holes tend to play as designed and long holes are made short.

[Josh Tarble]

Aren't the back tees "player's tees"?

I am of the opinion that courses should have 3 sets of tees.  Ladies that are very short, members tees and tips.  That's probably not popular because it's unfair though.

[Andy Treen]

We have three sets of hybrid/mixed tees at Taconic, all of which have been rated.  Hybrid/mixed tees have become common as it allows players to play appropriate yardages.  Regardless of their effect on shot variety par 4's should be par 4's.  

- Andy

[Jason Thurman]

Why do you need someone else to create the combo for you? If you want to play a mixed set, play a mixed set. Your pro is supposed to be able to help you calculate an appropriate rating and slope if you need to post a score.

[Nigel Islam]

Aren't the back tees "player's tees"?

I am of the opinion that courses should have 3 sets of tees.  Ladies that are very short, members tees and tips.  That's probably not popular because it's unfair though.

The older I get the more I find myself agreeing with your line of thought.

[Jason Topp]

Interesting note, when I was on the practice green at Streamsong I heard a caddie on the first tee of the Red telling his group that a lot if players play one set of tees on the front and then move up a set on the back because of its so much longer than the front. Not that it's a big deal but how do you post that?

Rob:  Courses are separately rated for each 9 so posting a score is pretty simple.  You can either post two nine hole scores or post an 18 hole score by adding the rating for each nine and averaging the slopes.    You also can post a score using your own combination of tees by using an adjustment formula in the handicap manual available online from the USGA.

[jeffwarne]

Why do you need someone else to create the combo for you? If you want to play a mixed set, play a mixed set. Your pro is supposed to be able to help you calculate an appropriate rating and slope if you need to post a score.

+10000
am always amazed that (many) of the people who insist they can't do this without more tees, or a jumbled scorecard, or a rating from 12 different combos (printed on the scorecard of course) are the same people that don't putt anything inside 4 feet, play "lateral" lost balls, and roll it in the fairway.
They're not playing golf anyway , so why do they need a precise to the decimal rating?

[Carl Johnson]

Why do you need someone else to create the combo for you? If you want to play a mixed set, play a mixed set. Your pro is supposed to be able to help you calculate an appropriate rating and slope if you need to post a score.

It's not always that simple.  I'm an advocate of mixed- or hybrid-tee set-ups, but I can see the other side.  I play mostly with seniors, and we play handicap games following the USGA handicap guidelines, so knowing ahead of time the ratings and slopes of the mixed tees we might play from is important.  (By the way, Jeff Warne is dead wrong, if not downright insulting, if he means to characterize all who like the "mixed-tee" approach as those who are "not playing golf anyway."  Let's keep in mind that at the beginning all you've got out there is grass, and how the regular single-colored tees are set initially involves human decision-making and matters of individual taste and preference.)

My QUESTIONS for those with insider experience are these.  Who is involved at your club in making decisions about where to set the tees and how the hybrid-tee courses should be created?  The pro?  The super?  The GM?  The Golf Committee?  The Green Committee?  One or more, or someone else?  Who takes the lead, and then who approves?

Also, does your golf association -- the body that assigns ratings and slopes -- give the club hole by hole ratings and slope numbers, from each tee pad (or however they do it) -- so the club can use that as a starting point for making up hybrid courses, rather than having to pose a particular hybrid first, and then have the association come back with the slope and rating.

I would appreciate any information, at all, about these processes.

[Jason Topp]

Why do you need someone else to create the combo for you? If you want to play a mixed set, play a mixed set. Your pro is supposed to be able to help you calculate an appropriate rating and slope if you need to post a score.

It's not always that simple.  I'm an advocate of mixed- or hybrid-tee set-ups, but I can see the other side.  I play mostly with seniors, and we play handicap games following the USGA handicap guidelines, so knowing ahead of time the ratings and slopes of the mixed tees we might play from is important.  (By the way, Jeff Warne is dead wrong, if not downright insulting, if he means to characterize all who like the "mixed-tee" approach as those who are "not playing golf anyway."  Let's keep in mind that at the beginning all you've got out there is grass, and how the regular single-colored tees are set initially involves human decision-making and matters of individual taste and preference.)

My QUESTIONS for those with insider experience are these.  Who is involved at your club in making decisions about where to set the tees and how the hybrid-tee courses should be created?  The pro?  The super?  The GM?  The Golf Committee?  The Green Committee?  One or more, or someone else?  Who takes the lead, and then who approves?

Also, does your golf association -- the body that assigns ratings and slopes -- give the club hole by hole ratings and slope numbers, from each tee pad (or however they do it) -- so the club can use that as a starting point for making up hybrid courses, rather than having to pose a particular hybrid first, and then have the association come back with the slope and rating.

I would appreciate any information, at all, about these processes.

Section 5-2G of the handicap manual has tables for men and women you can use to adjust in advance.  Just decide on the tees you will play and adjust rating and slope from the rated tees closest to the ones you will play in your hybrid course.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

[Carl Johnson]

Why do you need someone else to create the combo for you? If you want to play a mixed set, play a mixed set. Your pro is supposed to be able to help you calculate an appropriate rating and slope if you need to post a score.

It's not always that simple.  I'm an advocate of mixed- or hybrid-tee set-ups, but I can see the other side.  I play mostly with seniors, and we play handicap games following the USGA handicap guidelines, so knowing ahead of time the ratings and slopes of the mixed tees we might play from is important.  (By the way, Jeff Warne is dead wrong, if not downright insulting, if he means to characterize all who like the "mixed-tee" approach as those who are "not playing golf anyway."  Let's keep in mind that at the beginning all you've got out there is grass, and how the regular single-colored tees are set initially involves human decision-making and matters of individual taste and preference.)

My QUESTIONS for those with insider experience are these.  Who is involved at your club in making decisions about where to set the tees and how the hybrid-tee courses should be created?  The pro?  The super?  The GM?  The Golf Committee?  The Green Committee?  One or more, or someone else?  Who takes the lead, and then who approves?

Also, does your golf association -- the body that assigns ratings and slopes -- give the club hole by hole ratings and slope numbers, from each tee pad (or however they do it) -- so the club can use that as a starting point for making up hybrid courses, rather than having to pose a particular hybrid first, and then have the association come back with the slope and rating.

I would appreciate any information, at all, about these processes.

Section 5-2G of the handicap manual has tables for men and women you can use to adjust in advance.  Just decide on the tees you will play and adjust rating and slope from the rated tees closest to the ones you will play in your hybrid course.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

Jason, that is one way to do it -- no question about it.  But leaving that aside, I remain interested in the approach underlying my questions because as a practical matter -- in my experience -- it doesn't work well to try to get a group of players to look at the book and agree what tees to play hole-to-hole and made the appropriate adjustments on the fly.  Works better if a number of different course options are presented by the club.  Again, just my experience.

[jeffwarne]

Carl,
Post edited.


I stand by my assertion that sloping and rating every single hybrid tee combination is severe overkill.
If you play a odd /even blue (slope 130-CR 72)/black(slope 140-CR) 74 mix, do you need the information printed on the card ?
and the next day when you play an even/odd mix, do you need a that sloped and rated as well?
Couldn't you just go with Slope 135 and CR 73?

First of all it's all subjective anyway as course conditions vary (wind, very penal thick rough in spring, green speeds, cut down native in fall) and could be vastly different than they were the day the CR and Slope police came out for their free lunch and golf day.

And as I so uneloquently surmised before, the effect of picking up a 4 footer when given far outweigh any calculation for decimalized adjustments from a hybrid combo-the components of which very few agree on anyway. (ie. which holes should be moved up and how much)

and again even the best laid plans can be skewed by something as simple as setup by the maintenance crew.
Play ANY resort course and you'll see a FAR different setup than what was rated . Almost always ALL tee markers are up one set from the scorecard marker yardages.
Why? Pace of play concerns
Why is pace faster that way?
Because less shots will be hit due to sheer less length, comfort over forced carries etc.

thus skewing handicap indexes anyway......

[JMEvensky]

Carl Johnson,your state golf association should be able to rate any/all permutations easily. They can probably give you a hole-by-hole rating for each tee marker and you can design your own course to play.

[Sam Morrow]

What's the difference between the back tees and player tees?

[Carl Johnson]

Carl Johnson,your state golf association should be able to rate any/all permutations easily. They can probably give you a hole-by-hole rating for each tee marker and you can design your own course to play.

I'd thought this ought to be possible -- thanks for the confirmation.  Carl

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,
Post edited.


I stand by my assertion that sloping and rating every single hybrid tee combination is severe overkill.
If you play a odd /even blue (slope 130-CR 72)/black(slope 140-CR) 74 mix, do you need the information printed on the card ?
and the next day when you play an even/odd mix, do you need a that sloped and rated as well?
Couldn't you just go with Slope 135 and CR 73?

First of all it's all subjective anyway as course conditions vary (wind, very penal thick rough in spring, green speeds, cut down native in fall) and could be vastly different than they were the day the CR and Slope police came out for their free lunch and golf day.

And as I so uneloquently surmised before, the effect of picking up a 4 footer when given far outweigh any calculation for decimalized adjustments from a hybrid combo-the components of which very few agree on anyway. (ie. which holes should be moved up and how much)

and again even the best laid plans can be skewed by something as simple as setup by the maintenance crew.
Play ANY resort course and you'll see a FAR different setup than what was rated . Almost always ALL tee markers are up one set from the scorecard marker yardages.
Why? Pace of play concerns
Why is pace faster that way?
Because less shots will be hit due to sheer less length, comfort over forced carries etc.

thus skewing handicap indexes anyway......

Jeff, I can't disagree with anything you say -- all very logical.  Now, forgetting logic, I'm still interested in seeing if anyone can answer the questions I asked.  Carl

[BCowan]

We have gone from 2-3 sets of tees to 5-6 sets of tees plus combo cards.  overkill.  4 Sets is all that is needed, plus people have to learn that courses through elevation play much different than the number on the card.  Ladies, Ladies Championship/Senior, mens, Tips is all that is needed.  Too easy.  Jeff Warne is right, nobody putts 4 footers anyway.  If the member tees aren't long enough for you, go to the gym or see your local PGA professional and play the tips, but please play ready golf

[Rob Marshall]

Aren't the back tees "player's tees"?

I am of the opinion that courses should have 3 sets of tees.  Ladies that are very short, members tees and tips.  That's probably not popular because it's unfair though.

I have no problem with 3 sets of tees. My point is if the back set is 7200 and the middle set 6600 that's a pretty big difference.  It would be  nice if they came up score card that got you to something in between. Play tips on some holes, members tees on others. Who wants to play five 475 yard par 4's? So you play a few from 430. It's about having fun isn't it?  I wonder why the game us in decline. As for back tees being "players" tees I guess the senior tour members aren't "players".  WTF

[Rob Marshall]

Why would I want to hit the same one or two clubs on every approach. That's all you end up doing on "mixed" tees as short holes tend to play as designed and long holes are made short.

Why would long holes end up playing short. Going from 475 to 445 or 425 is short? Isn't a hole that has a tee box that is 475 and another at 425 designed to be played from both tees? 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

My course has a "member combo" set of tees where you play the tips on all par 4s, and all the par 3s and 5s from the blue tees (one up from black).  It has it's own course and slope rating but it's not on the scorecard so it's a bit of a secret.  I would check GHIN to see if any of the courses you guys play have any composite tees that aren't listed on the card.  Also, for match play I like to play a crazy smattering of tees although it's hard to post a score that way.

[Jason Thurman]

I have no problem with 3 sets of tees. My point is if the back set is 7200 and the middle set 6600 that's a pretty big difference.  It would be  nice if they came up score card that got you to something in between. Play tips on some holes, members tees on others. Who wants to play five 475 yard par 4's? So you play a few from 430. It's about having fun isn't it?  I wonder why the game us in decline. As for back tees being "players" tees I guess the senior tour members aren't "players".  WTF

Are you really insinuating that the game is in decline because there aren't enough tees?

[Matt_Cohn]

It used to be that a golf course would have tees at 5,500 yards, 6,000 yards, and 6,500 yards. Right?

Now you build a golf course that's 7,000 yards, and we realize that 5,000 is great for a lot of women/juniors/new players. And you still don't want more than a 500 yard gap between each set. So that works out to five sets of tees.

This doesn't mean that you need 5 separate tee boxes on every hole, but the idea of having 5 sets on the scorecard doesn't seem illogical.

BTW, I really like what Poppy Hills does: the back tees aren't even on the regular scorecard, and the names of the tees make one think that the 6,500 yard set are actually all the way back. If you want to play from 7,000, you have to know those tees exist and ask the starter for the scorecard specifically.

[Matthew Lloyd]

I share many of the views already expressed on this thread about how plenty of tee options exist on most courses these days -- in some cases probably too many. I usually don't keep score or track a handicap very seriously, however, so maybe that's why it's never bothered me. I don't enjoy hitting the same shots over and over again, however, so I will often move around between sets of tees to give myself different length approach shots each time I play a hole (on courses that I play multiple times).

The combination of tees that I usually enjoy the most is to play 2/3 of the holes from the second to longest tee box, and then pick 5-6 holes to play from the tips for entertainment value.

I do really like how many scorecards now offer a combination and can provide slope rating etc. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

It used to be that a golf course would have tees at 5,500 yards, 6,000 yards, and 6,500 yards. Right?

Now you build a golf course that's 7,000 yards, and we realize that 5,000 is great for a lot of women/juniors/new players. And you still don't want more than a 500 yard gap between each set. So that works out to five sets of tees.

This doesn't mean that you need 5 separate tee boxes on every hole, but the idea of having 5 sets on the scorecard doesn't seem illogical.

BTW, I really like what Poppy Hills does: the back tees aren't even on the regular scorecard, and the names of the tees make one think that the 6,500 yard set are actually all the way back. If you want to play from 7,000, you have to know those tees exist and ask the starter for the scorecard specifically.

I've always appreciated what they do over in GB&I with the tee of the day and restrictions on when the back tees are available and to whom. It seems that in the states most courses just don't have the testicular fortitude to tell the regular player to get off the back tee box. I've seen the same thing Poppy Hills does before and I think its a great idea. Especially for the scorecard collector as those back yardage scorecards are almost like easter eggs one has to hunt for. I like it when its taken one step farther and markers are not even put out on those back tees. the general public will just think the tee box isn't in use that day and will move up to the appropriate distance.

Strangely I've rarely seen an abundance of players playing the wrong tees at private courses, they typically play from where they are suppose to.

[Rob Marshall]

I have no problem with 3 sets of tees. My point is if the back set is 7200 and the middle set 6600 that's a pretty big difference.  It would be  nice if they came up score card that got you to something in between. Play tips on some holes, members tees on others. Who wants to play five 475 yard par 4's? So you play a few from 430. It's about having fun isn't it?  I wonder why the game us in decline. As for back tees being "players" tees I guess the senior tour members aren't "players".  WTF

Are you really insinuating that the game is in decline because there aren't enough tees?

Not at all. I never said we need more tees. My thought was have a score card that dictates what tees to play from on each hole. Blacks on #1 maybe Blues on #2. That way you bridge the gap on courses that are 7200 from the tips and 6600 from the member tees.  So thus particular  rotation gets you to say 6850. Have it sloped and rated. There are no new tee boxes. The idea is to fine the right combination that's fun and challenging. Your not going to play a course that's too easy from the regular tees and too hard from the tips.