CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Garland Bayley]

GJ

Go back and play Pennard some more.  It all makes sense save for the 2nd green    Although, I find it strange you can't figure out 16.

What's there to figure out about 16? The first shot is a forced carry with an uphill landing area. The second shot is blind to a hogsback fairway. Unless you can hit the shot on the proper line so that it might not run off to either side, you are searching for a ball in the rough after a blind shot that you weren't able to see land and bounce. I played it twice with 8 iron second and thirds. Parred it each time, but had to search my ball out of the rough after the second each time.

 4 too is an oddish hole, but a wonderful 3 shotter.  Its sooooo wide that people get spooked.

What's so wide about it. It narrows where your driver should finish. Half of the narrowing is OB, so it takes driver out of your hands on the tee. Now you are so far back that it would be stupid to go for the green in two unless you always hit it straight and accurate. Once again second and third shots are eight irons.

 There is tons of room left,

Are you advocating hitting it on the 9th tee or 8th green?

but the second is dangerous being blind, with trouble long and coming in from a bad angle.

Like I said, not a good place to be going for the green in two.

 Of course, one can always challenge the OOB on the tee. 

So it seems that in order for a set of holes to make a list of courses with great par 5s the holes have to be no fun for high handicappers. These holes suck compared to the par 5s at Pacific Dunes for example.

Plenty of options boys, just a lack of creativity on the part of golfers...I think they call that user error.

[Ryan Coles]

Why the dislike for Lundin?  The mundane upper hole certainly doesn't ruin all the really good holes. 

I just didn't enjoy it. Feel its over rated due to being in fife. Every thing I read contradicts my view so it was good to see Ran's score.

I did not rate Lundin highly the first time I saw it, either.  Hangover effect from having been in St. Andrews a full month by then.  If you go back I think you would find you missed something.

Quite possibly. The previous two days had been spent playing Kingsbarns so perhaps it was a bit after the lord mayors show and seemed small and tame by comparison.

[Ryan Coles]

Actually Ran gives Lundin a 6 it's Masa who gives it a 3.

Paul

Thank you. I stand corrected.

Apologies Ran. Always thought he'd be the softest marker!

[Paul_Turner]

i thought Blackwell was a definite this time but I guess it just didn't fit into Tom's travels.

[Ryan Coles]

Not saying its a bad thing but were fellow readers surprised how relatively few courses scored a consensus 9?

[Paul_Turner]

Ashdown Forest should be blue highlighted and the idea to add bunkers isn't a good one !(Ran's I'm sure!)

[Paul_Turner]

Saddest entry:  Most Stylish Clubhouses:  Whittington Heath

We know what's in store for that old beauty

[Peter Pallotta]

Some more random thoughts -- I thought it was an excellent write-up by Ran of Royal Worlington. Brought me there in words in a very clear and direct way, just a near perfect bout of communication. Well done, Ran!

Also: I'm almost certain now after 4 days with the CG that I'm a "5" kind of guy. I don't know why - maybe I'm afraid of success as they say, or don't feel worthy or like I'd belong. But those ruggedly spectacular links courses hard by the seas of Scotland and Ireland, somehow seem too dramatic for me -- something ostentatiously "9ish" about them despite their obvious beauty.  

A nice little "5", a small club house, a short walk to town for the pub or a coffee shop -- something quiet and perennial about the 5s, unconcerned that belt notchers might be passing them by, but happy to host them after they've read the CG....

Also: For my tastes, the photos throughout are outstanding - artistic without being 'artistic' if you know what I mean.

[Paul_Turner]

Pete yes 5's are great in their own way...and more of them in this edition it appears.

A question for Tom

Will the CG include all courses ever seen by all 4 authors? I was thinking that if one of the authors had happened to be British, then for this volume, there would be a bunch of courses that only the Brit has seen....  rather than a lot of overlap because GB&I is so compact and you've followed similar travel plans.

But for America, being so vast won't there be many more courses with only a single review?

[Jim Nugent]

I'm curious to know which courses had the greatest range of rankings.  e.g. Lundin apparently got one 3 and one 6.  That's huge.  Any other courses like that? 

[Tony_Muldoon]

The book is most welcome and well done.  I look forward to spending more time with it and seeing whose marks I most often agree with.

However Tom I think your essay on Rye comes over more as a cri de coeur than a valid reason why Rye doesn't have a bigger reputation.  Only us wingnuts care who designed a course.

[Tony_Muldoon]

And before Mark Bourgeois chips in, yes ineed Dealies have been hard done by.  The microundulations are only priased as being "some of the best of any British Links" when that should of course read "Universe".   And the scoring has only gone from a 6 to a 7,8,8,6.  Oh to be damned with such faint praise...

Cue many more Deal threads to tackle the injustice of it all...

[Sean_A]

Spangles

If it would make you feel any better, if I were on the panel I would have been pushing for a Deal 9.  If TOC is the pinnacle, there can be little doubt that Deal has a good case as a 9.  It is hard to see how one could say TOC is a 10 and Deal a 6.  That is a serious disconnect.

Paul

I am shocked Whittington's house was marked as stylish.  It looks good on the outside, inside its a mess.

GJ

Go play Pennard again.  If you liked Perranporth, the penny should eventually drop.

Paul G

Bearwood is a good course, no doubt, but its very Grove-like in there are few surprises/risks taken by the archie.  The golf is straight-forward and not at all like nearly all of the courses rated in the book.  Perhaps much of the lack of surprises is the big and brash aspect of each place.  
I think both would fit in better for a ranking deal rather than a recommendation deal.

13. Walton Heath: I have always been led to believe (not knowing either course very well) that the Old and New were quite similar in quality.  Yet the disparity in scores is dramatic an across the board.  

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I am shocked Whittington's house was marked as stylish.  It looks good on the outside, inside its a mess.

I've never been on the inside.  Perhaps that explains my ranking.  It looks stylish from the golf course, that's what I was shooting for on that list.  Functional is another thing entirely!

[Tom_Doak]

Pete yes 5's are great in their own way...and more of them in this edition it appears.

A question for Tom

Will the CG include all courses ever seen by all 4 authors? I was thinking that if one of the authors had happened to be British, then for this volume, there would be a bunch of courses that only the Brit has seen....  rather than a lot of overlap because GB&I is so compact and you've followed similar travel plans.

But for America, being so vast won't there be many more courses with only a single review?

Paul:

Yes, that's the plan, for every course any of us has seen to be included.  It remains to be seen whether I can get all of my collaborators to write up the lower-ranked courses that they've seen; Masa, in particular, has seen a ton of lower-ranked courses in strange places and I don't know how much he has to say about some of them.  But that's the plan, and in the books that follow there will indeed be a lot of courses that only one of us has seen.

[Ryan Coles]

I'm curious to know which courses had the greatest range of rankings.  e.g. Lundin apparently got one 3 and one 6.  That's huge.  Any other courses like that? 

The mind poisoning Castle Course 0 5 5.

[Paul Gray]

Pete yes 5's are great in their own way...and more of them in this edition it appears.

A question for Tom

Will the CG include all courses ever seen by all 4 authors? I was thinking that if one of the authors had happened to be British, then for this volume, there would be a bunch of courses that only the Brit has seen....  rather than a lot of overlap because GB&I is so compact and you've followed similar travel plans.

But for America, being so vast won't there be many more courses with only a single review?

Paul:

Yes, that's the plan, for every course any of us has seen to be included.  It remains to be seen whether I can get all of my collaborators to write up the lower-ranked courses that they've seen; Masa, in particular, has seen a ton of lower-ranked courses in strange places and I don't know how much he has to say about some of them.  But that's the plan, and in the books that follow there will indeed be a lot of courses that only one of us has seen.

Such is the richness of golf in Britain, I'm already thinking Volume 1.1 could be a plan. 

[Thomas Dai]

I am shocked Whittington's house was marked as stylish.  It looks good on the outside, inside its a mess.

I've never been on the inside.  Perhaps that explains my ranking.  It looks stylish from the golf course, that's what I was shooting for on that list.  Functional is another thing entirely!

The highest part of the building (back left rear in photo) is from when it acted as a grandstand (bleacher) etc so the toffs could watch the horse-racing in style back in the long distant days when there was a horse-racing track on the site. Various modifications to the building since then though.



Whittington Heath is a very nice Harry Colt heathland course certainly worth playing and one which ought to be played asap before the planned new HS2 railway line cuts through golf course.

atb

[Peter Pallotta]

Another thought that came as I keep reading. With all the many references to Dr Mackenzie's work (both still in tact or NLE), it suddenly seemed to me that his work with Bobby Jones at Augusta was a dramatic departure from what he'd done in GB&I. Of course, he was older then and the Augusta site was sui generis and styles had changed over the years, but for all that Augusta really does seem to be a totally different kind of golf course for Dr Mac -- as if the influence of a champion golfer like Mr Jones was very significant, and as if Augusta was actually the first modern golf course, and not a 'golden age' course at all. Just the random riffs of a neophyte here, so I could very well be talking utter nonsense....but that's what occurred to me.

Peter

[Tommy Williamsen]

A note from page 154, Things that have changed the most since 1982.  Number five ," That anyone would spend the kind of money it took to develop Kingsbarn or Castle Stuart or the European Club is unimaginable."  European club owner and designer, Pat Ruddy, mortgaged his home, did much of the shaping himself, used sleepers in the bunkers because they were less expensive to maintain, and there was no irrigation on the course, even for greens.  He has changed the course as he has had the money.  Now, of course, the TEC is very profitable.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played all the courses Tom reviewed except Tenby and Borth & and Ynylas.  One I wished he had had time for is Bull Bay, near Holyhead.  It is a Fowler course set on some extraordinary land.  If Mark Rowlinson sees this maybe he can post some pictures.  It is a wild course that has some holes never before constructed or even dreamed of.

I've never understood the high ranking of Nefyn.  The holes away from the little peninsula are dreadful and the holes on the peninsula are only mediocre.

[Bill_McBride]

Another thought that came as I keep reading. With all the many references to Dr Mackenzie's work (both still in tact or NLE), it suddenly seemed to me that his work with Bobby Jones at Augusta was a dramatic departure from what he'd done in GB&I. Of course, he was older then and the Augusta site was sui generis and styles had changed over the years, but for all that Augusta really does seem to be a totally different kind of golf course for Dr Mac -- as if the influence of a champion golfer like Mr Jones was very significant, and as if Augusta was actually the first modern golf course, and not a 'golden age' course at all. Just the random riffs of a neophyte here, so I could very well be talking utter nonsense....but that's what occurred to me.

Peter

A modern course based on the principles of the Old Course!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Actually, Mark did a photo thread of Bull Bay.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37494.0.html

[Sean_A]

Sean, what is the differential in scoring between the Old and New - I still need to pick mine up from the post office. I see very little difference between the two except the Old breaks your balls from 1-18, whereas the New feels shorter and more fun. I love the start - two driveable par 4s and a short par 3 in the first 4 holes. Compare to the Old where your first shot of the day is like a 3 iron, followed by a beast of a par 4.

Doak gives the Old 8 and New 6.  Ran hasn't played the New.  Masa has it 7-5!  

Alwoodley's house is definitely a step from Whittington Heath.  Although, the interior of Alwoodley doesn't strike me as well designed...the space isn't used very well.   

Tommy

I agree about Nefyn.  Its a dumb blonde.  Very light on good architecture. 4 is about as far as I could stretch...no interest in going back.  

14. St Medan - On Masa's 10 Most Wanted: Its very rare that I have to google a GB&I course mentioned by people as noteworthy. I have never heard of St Medan.  I gotta say, I'm intrigued. 

15. Channel Isles & Isle of Man: Were they purposely excluded or are the panelists light?  I do notice that Tom has Castletown and Royal Guersnsey on his 10 hit list,

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Saddest entry:  Most Stylish Clubhouses:  Whittington Heath
We know what's in store for that old beauty

Better than Alwoodley? Must be special...

I can't comment in relation to Alwoodley Brian, but WH is a damn fine Colt heathland. Some very interesting green complexes including quite a few which slope severely down from front to rear. I've played WH with a few keen folk over the years and all have come away impressed. Play it in an open comp from the whites if you get the opportunity. It's located pretty close to the M6 (toll) so it's pretty easy to get to/from.

atb