CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Sean_A]

1. Best Par - 3s: Looking at just two courses mentioned, Rye and Swinley, it seems obvious to me that there was a gaffe. Like the other two courses, Painswick has three 3s singled out for ! distinction.  What the other two lack is one !! (obviously the 6th).  I was hoping Painswick would make a list of best 3s if there was one...disappointed it didn't because Painswick is deserving.  

On the flip side with something positive

2. Best Par - 5s: It was superb to see Pennard be acknowledged for its excellent set of 5s.  Nobody talks about these holes as a set, but they are all very different, entertaining and with a hint of controversy...excellent call there boys.  In fact, naming Pennard as a course to take a good friend to play is a good call.

3. Edgbaston - In Defence of  : Most of the calls by Doak are in a general +/_ 1 zone with my thoughts.  There are a few exceptions, Edgbaston being one.  I have this one as a 6 while Doak offers up a measly 4.  I would like to hear more thoughts on the matter if and when Tom cares to oblige me.  In any case, its hard to fathom how Harborne scores higher with a 5.  

Back to the positive

4. Whittington Heath: It was pleasing to know that WH is "A quintessentially English course, this minor gem charms golfers from the opening tee shot right through to the final green."    

Big surprise

5. Prestbury:  Since Doak visited Delamere Forest I thought he would see Colt's classy Prestbury.  Perhaps its quality wasn't made clear, but its in the same class as Delamere...I have a lot of time for Prestbury.

More to follow as and when.  Please chirp in if you feel so inclined.

Ciao    

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I agree with nearly all of this. 

1) Didn't Swinley get left off the best par 3 list???  I think an oversight.

What happened to !!! chess notation grade, not one hole scores !!! this time.
 
2) Edgbaston I think Harborne is better so wasn't surprised at the "4" but didn't really understand the logic of the text.  Since the courses are of comparable length (I think).

3)  At Tom alludes to in the text, I guess many of us thought Beau Desert would be better liked.  I did think WH would be right up Tom's street.  But no mention of HS2 to encourage a visit before destruction.

Re Prestbury and others...yes quite a few courses left in that 5+ range

[Sean_A]

Paul

6. Beau Desert: Not a homer, but I know the course well.  It seems Doak really nailed BD for lack of width...which is understandable. I thought the greens may push the score up, but I guess not.  Not trying to be cheeky, but the one hole Tom cited for narrowness is the very cool double dogleg 12th...I think the best use of trees on the course    Widen that hole out to a dogleg left or a straightish hole and the entire tee strategy is taken away.   Its the only par 4 which strikes out away from the boundary line.  The routing is very cool because there is a lot of time in isolation mixed in with some social areas.  The routing also provides for many shorter loops (the 9s don't return to the house) which are not all obvious when playing the course.  Brought back to its proper presentation, I think BD is a comfortable 7, due to trees I have to knock it down a peg..that makes Doak in the +/_ range. 

7. Sherwood Forest: A 3?  That places it below waste of time (except for the great Hitler Trophy - the definite high point of a visit) places like Hesketh  (Rihc, you ought to be ashamed for recommending Hesketh in its neighbourhood  ).  I am completely befuddled.  Mind you, M & D only offer 4, so maybe I'm whacked. 

On the plus side

8. Its great to see a guy like Ran duped by Hillside Highway Golf...a 7    Doak has it figured right. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

The Royal Portrush courses and County Sligo making the "best preserved" list is ironic given recent news.

[Jason Topp]

Certain descriptions of courses in this book and the original public version are shaded (I think in blue).  Those courses seem to be noteworthy but I could not find an explanation as to the meaning of the shading.  Does anyone know what the shading is supposed to signfy?

I also find an odd disconnect between the descriptions and the numbers in certain circumstances.  Most often this occurs when the descriptions are quite critical but the number designation is actually relatively high.  I don't have the book in front of me to provide specific examples.

[Tom_Doak]

Certain descriptions of courses in this book and the original public version are shaded (I think in blue).  Those courses seem to be noteworthy but I could not find an explanation as to the meaning of the shading.  Does anyone know what the shading is supposed to signfy?

I also find an odd disconnect between the descriptions and the numbers in certain circumstances.  Most often this occurs when the descriptions are quite critical but the number designation is actually relatively high.  I don't have the book in front of me to provide specific examples.

The shading is supposed to draw your attention to a course ... that is all.

The "disconnect" is an important part of the book.  The whole point of assigning numbers was so I could talk about an interesting aspect of the course [positive or negative] in the text without making you think that made it great or bad ... the number ratings were a balance against that.  It saves me the space of having to always present both sides of the argument ... I can write about the holes at Augusta I don't like, but still give it a 9, and save the trouble of telling you how great the 13th is, which everyone already knows anyway.

[Tom_Doak]

1) Didn't Swinley get left off the best par 3 list???  I think an oversight.

What happened to !!! chess notation grade, not one hole scores !!! this time.
 

I just forgot I could go to !!!   If I didn't give any for the best holes in the UK, I certainly won't give three !!!'s for anywhere else.  Give me a ? for that oversight, or maybe a !?

As for the Gazetteer, it is by far the hardest section of the book to cross-check, we were always leaving out someplace in some list and then noticing late in the game.  Leaving out Painswick for Best Par-3's was indeed an oversight, but I included it in the Gourmet's Choice, so hopefully they won't complain too much.

[Garland Bayley]

...
2. Best Par - 5s: It was superb to see Pennard be acknowledged for its excellent set of 5s.  Nobody talks about these holes as a set, but they are all very different, entertaining and with a hint of controversy...excellent call there boys.  In fact, naming Pennard as a course to take a good friend to play is a good call.
...

Just don't take a friend to Pennard on a weekend with good weather. You can hardly play the course with all the pedestrians on it. Although, the bikini clad beach goers might peak the interest of some.

I don't get saying Pennard has an excellent set of par 5s. #4 is too dangerous (would be much better as a short par 4, or perhaps a long road hole style par 4), #16 is too silly, #17 has too much gorse. I did like #10.
If you are going to complain about #16 at Bandon Trails, then you have to apply the same complaints to #17 at Pennard. The tee balls all end up in the same place. Then it's an uphill slog. Not to mention blindness on every shot. Even the target behind the green can't be seen from much of the hole.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - one of the many thoughts the book engendered is how difficult a test so many of the fine English golf courses (and individual golf holes therein) would've been back in the 1920s and 30s.  Interestingly difficult, yes, and often beautifully so, and never banal/boring, but difficult and challenging and potentially punishing nonetheless.

It was a real eye opener  i.e. to see how some of those charming England in-land courses were hardly 'walks in the park' for the hickory and/or persimmon set.  And, because Tom D is the author of the Confidential Guide, I was struck by one part of the grand 'magic trick' that is Renaissance Golf's success, i.e. how he manages to design courses that capture the beauty, interest, charm, terrific greens, and seeming ethos of their English golden age counterparts but that at the same time don't play nearly as difficult (I'm told) as the originals would have back when they were first built.  

In other words, that sly fox of a Tom D has built great courses and a wonderful career by providing today's golfers with the same experiences and joys that he himself had as a 25 year old 8-handicapper playing the great and beloved English and Scottish courses of old - but playing them in 1982, with 1982 equipment!

Now THAT'S the way to build a sustaining and sustainable career!

Peter

[Rich Goodale]

1) Didn't Swinley get left off the best par 3 list???  I think an oversight.

What happened to !!! chess notation grade, not one hole scores !!! this time.
 

I just forgot I could go to !!!   If I didn't give any for the best holes in the UK, I certainly won't give three !!!'s for anywhere else.  Give me a ? for that oversight, or maybe a !?

As for the Gazetteer, it is by far the hardest section of the book to cross-check, we were always leaving out someplace in some list and then noticing late in the game.  Leaving out Painswick for Best Par-3's was indeed an oversight, but I included it in the Gourmet's Choice, so hopefully they won't complain too much.

Not to worry, Tom.  I don't think there is such a thing as a !!! golf hole.  !!! is meant to express a human being's interaction with a static playing field, whether a chess board or a golf hole.  The 17th at the Old Course is what it is.  When John Daly bombed it right in the playoff with Rocca and then hit a knocked down 9-iron to a few feet, that was !!!.  The hole was the stage and not the actor.

[Ryan Coles]

I liked that Ran didn't like Lundin.

Nairn will probably feel hard done by.

[Ryan Coles]

Nominations for best courses not reviewed or mentioned:

Ladybank
Trevose
Frilford Heath
Bearwood Lakes
Remedy Oak

[jeffwarne]

...
2. Best Par - 5s: It was superb to see Pennard be acknowledged for its excellent set of 5s.  Nobody talks about these holes as a set, but they are all very different, entertaining and with a hint of controversy...excellent call there boys.  In fact, naming Pennard as a course to take a good friend to play is a good call.
...

Just don't take a friend to Pennard on a weekend with good weather. You can hardly play the course with all the pedestrians on it. Although, the bikini clad beach goers might peak the interest of some.

I don't get saying Pennard has an excellent set of par 5s. #4 is too dangerous (would be much better as a short par 4, or perhaps a long road hole style par 4), #16 is too silly, #17 has too much gorse. I did like #10.

GJ,
very true about the walkers, who show little interest in paying attention, which is all good till you're on 6 tee with two groups of golfers waiting.
Don't get me wrong, I can't figure #4 at Pennard out in 4 plays-another reason to go back, BUT Pennard has VERY unique and fun par 5's, something that is very rare in my opinion.
I loved 16, and we played to a front right pin in a 20 mph right to left wind
17 I've played x,eagle,x, par

[Bill_McBride]

I liked that Ran didn't like Lundin.

Nairn will probably feel hard done by.

Why the dislike for Lundin?  The mundane upper hole certainly doesn't ruin all the really good holes. 

[Garland Bayley]

... I can't figure #4 at Pennard out in 4 plays...

4 is a lay back on the tee shot so you don't hit someone on 9 hole or tee. Then it is too dangerous to go long on the second so it is another lay back.
It's a good piece of land, just not utilized very well IMO.

[David_Elvins]

Interesting to see all the great golf holes that didn't make the eclectic 18s. 

Some serious depth of great golf holes in the UK. 

[Sean_A]

GJ

Go back and play Pennard some more.  It all makes sense save for the 2nd green    Although, I find it strange you can't figure out 16.  4 too is an oddish hole, but a wonderful 3 shotter.  Its sooooo wide that people get spooked.  There is tons of room left, but the second is dangerous being blind, with trouble long and coming in from a bad angle. Of course, one can always challenge the OOB on the tee.  Plenty of options boys, just a lack of creativity on the part of golfers...I think they call that user error.

Pietro

I got a real lesson in hickories during a Dr Mac Society match at Cavendish.  The course isn't long, but jeepers it seemed hellish for these old boys bashing wood.  Although, Cavendish was a tail end hickory course.  

9. Kington: I was quite surprised when Tom said he wanted to play Kington.  I offered to tag along, but I'm not sure Kington requires a guide  .  In any case, I was quite surprised when Tom gave Kington a 7, but backed the rating with "If you don't want to get your golf shoes filthy, just stay on the M5 and forget about it, but if you enjoy seeing something different, you'll remember Kington long after you've forgotten some of the championship links..."

Now for a big boooooo

10. Best Bunkering - Lytham: How bloody hard is it to cover all the bases when a course has 200ish bunkers?  New Zealand should have made this list.   I think that there should have been space for Walton Heath Old as well.  

11. +2 Doak: I am embarrassed that Doak got to Leckford before me, even after I told myself to get on my bike.  Maybe 2015....

Ciao

[Sean_A]

12. +3 Doak: The man's name is C.K. Hutchison.  At least one non-Doak mention spells it Hutchinson.  This has become a real bug for me because of course, Hutchinson was a completely different and more famous chap than Hutchison.  I can see in 50 years time, on this site (hosted by grandson of Ran) the knock down drag outs over this spelling, what it really means and who is right or wrong 

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Nominations for best courses not reviewed or mentioned:

Ladybank
Trevose
Frilford Heath
Bearwood Lakes
Remedy Oak

Is Remedy Oak actually any good? It's not too far from me but I've never played it and I'm not sure, going by reports, that I want to. Is that perhaps snobbery on the part of some that have told me about it? I know others that like it but, to be honest, I'm more trusting of those that don't.

Are Blackmoor and Brockenhurst Manor in the guide? North Hants?

[Ryan Coles]

Nominations for best courses not reviewed or mentioned:

Ladybank
Trevose
Frilford Heath
Bearwood Lakes
Remedy Oak

Is Remedy Oak actually any good? It's not too far from me but I've never played it and I'm not sure, going by reports, that I want to. Is that perhaps snobbery on the part of some that have told me about it. I know others that like it but, to be honest, I'm more trusting of those that don't.

Are Blackmoor and Brockenhurst Manor in the guide? North Hants?

It's a stand out amongst newer courses and certainly better than many that are. I'd give it a 6 though it would probably get 4 or 5. I can't think of many better inland that doesn't play through heather.

Hindhead is in and rated similarly to Hankley. Liphook fares slightly better but no place for North Hants or Blackmoor. Don't think Berkhamstead or Ashridge made it either. Sort of illustrates the point made about the strength of english golf.

[Ryan Coles]

I liked that Ran didn't like Lundin.

Nairn will probably feel hard done by.

Why the dislike for Lundin?  The mundane upper hole certainly doesn't ruin all the really good holes. 

I just didn't enjoy it. Feel its over rated due to being in fife. Every thing I read contradicts my view so it was good to see Ran's score.

[Paul_Turner]

I don't see courses like Bearwood Lakes exciting Tom and company.

Ashridge's inclusion.and Tom's affection for the 2nd hole there was why I bought the original book.  A non flashy course course in the Whittington Heath vein.

I thought Ran loved Lundin but perhaps it was John M in some of those very first GCA threads?

[Tom_Doak]

Why the dislike for Lundin?  The mundane upper hole certainly doesn't ruin all the really good holes. 

I just didn't enjoy it. Feel its over rated due to being in fife. Every thing I read contradicts my view so it was good to see Ran's score.

I did not rate Lundin highly the first time I saw it, either.  Hangover effect from having been in St. Andrews a full month by then.  If you go back I think you would find you missed something.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

Since I haven't got it yet, I'll go with:

Liphook: 6 (Very good but not as good as some think)
Hindhead: 5 (because it's good but doesn't take much working out)
And two that aren't in:

North Hants: 4 (because it should score higher but difficulty is currently being placed above substance)
Blackmoor: 6 (because it gets better the more you see it)

[Paul_Turner]

Actually Ran gives Lundin a 6 it's Masa who gives it a 3.