[Josh Tarble]

I'll probably get beat up for this but I can't remove the cost as a factor in evaluating a course.  Straits cost is outrageous in my opinion.  Give me 10 plays between Straits and Arcadia Bluffs and it's 9-1.  It's funny to think $180 is a bargain but compared to Straits it becomes an easy decision for me.

Ken

Ken,
You won't hear me say anything about the cost for the Straits...it's ridiculous.  But I think the Straits is perhaps Dye's finest work.  I absolutely love it one of my favorite courses I've ever played.  I would go the exact opposite 8-2 over Arcadia.

[Chris DeToro]

I'd break it down similarly as well actually.  I think Straits takes a lot of the things I like about his work and amplifies it.  Whereas a place like PGA West did the opposite. 

[Ken Fry]

Josh,

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I really enjoyed the River course.  Lots of variety and unique challenges.  I'll call that my favorite Dye Course but I'm lacking experience of playing courses held in high regard or more famous like The Golf Club, Kiawah Island, Sawgrass, Long Cove, PGA West, Bulle Rock, Firethorn, Colleton River, Harbour Town, Honors Course, Pete Dye GC or Casa de Campo.  It's amazing the depth of quality in just that short list.

Chris,

Straits over Arcadia?  In all fairness, I have many more plays at Arcadia so I'm much more familiar with it.  Both have their positives and negatives.

I wish Arcadia could be played with more of a ground game, the bunkering is all over the map aesthetically and while I like the holes at Arcadia, there are points in the routing which makes walking tough.

For Straits, I still can't get past holes #5 and #18 and as I mentioned earlier, the bunkering is too over the top for my taste.  I saw little need for 1000+ bunkers on the course.  I've never been a fan of volcano bunkers regardless of their purpose.  While playing Straits, despite the beauty I got a feeling of repetition and it took me a while to figure out why.  Dye has been criticized for his fairway design at French Lick.  Fairways will turn sharply and serpentine to the green.  Many holes at Straits do the same thing.  While there are uniquely designed holes at Straits that are fantastic, too many didn't agree with me.

Ken

[Chris DeToro]

Dustin Johnson certainly agrees with your feelings on the 1,000 bunkers.  As would I.  I remember driving up to the course and seeing bunkers all over the place in spots that one would probably never play from.  But I didn't feel like them being there took away from the golf course. 

[Kevin Lynch]

[
As far as Straits goes:  it's challenging, it's beautiful but just overrated.  The bunkering is overkill.  The site is not natural at all but better than what was apparently there before (it's a shocking view to be standing on the Irish course hole #13 tee and see flat farmland 60 feet below and only 200 yards away).  Bunkers once used to define and challenge fairway edges are now left out in areas of rough sometimes as far as 40-50 yards away.  That's a presentation decision but still something that stands out to me.

Dustin Johnson certainly agrees with your feelings on the 1,000 bunkers.  As would I.  I remember driving up to the course and seeing bunkers all over the place in spots that one would probably never play from.  But I didn't feel like them being there took away from the golf course. 

People complaining about the extraneous bunkering at Whistling Straits is one item that always gets me going. Why do you care if there's a bunker in the distance that may not be in play?  They created a sandy landscape and then routed a course through it.  Imagine how unnatural a piece of property that large would look if the only sand you saw was near the 18 playing corridors.  They went all in in creating a faux landscape and it works.

But I'll put it in terms that some here may understand, given the love for Pinehurst #2.  Should every inch of sand that doesn't come into play at Pinehurst #2 be replaced with something else?  Is that bunkering overkill? I realize that's the natural landscape at Pinehurst, but that's essentially the same effect they were going for at Whistling Straits.  Instead of obsessing about the 2,500+ bunker count, think of it like Pinehurst as being one big sandy area with some green sprinkled among it.

Many thought Pinehurst looked unnatural with seas of green broken up by a few bunkers near the playing corridors.  But that's essentially what Whistling Straits would feel like if they removed the "extra" bunkers that don't come into play.

End rant. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Jason,

I heard second hand that when Pete Dye came to the PDGC to do some updates for its 25th Anniversary in 2013 that some of the members wanted to have him change the 17th green and he said something to the effect of "You can change the green but then you have to change the name of the course."  Not sure if it is true but it would be within character.

The thing I love best about PDGC are the angles, to me that is the key.  There is tons of room to drive the ball there but if you may create a terrible angle for your second shot.  For me the 17th is controversial just because it is late in a round and has ruined a couple of good scores for me.  I am beginning to learn where the miss should be there (hint: not short or right).

I think using angles versus pure doglegs has always been my favorite Pete Dye feature on most of his courses that I have played.

I'm with you on the 17th at PDGC.  With it being that short and fairly open in the drive zone, I have no problem with Dye demanding some precision with a wedge.  It's not a forced carry or a potential penalty stroke bonanza. 

Regarding the original post, my primary impressions from Pete Dye's courses has been his creativity and ability to work with wildly different pieces of land.  He has distinguished himself on the swamps of Sawgrass or Harbour Town, the rivers and valleys of Blackwolf Run, a flat Army airbase at Whistling Straits or 500 acres of abandoned, coal-mined land at PDGC. 

There is no way you can make a judgement about Pete Dye's work from simply two courses.

From my experience with Dye courses, the use of angles and visual deception has stuck with me.  Pete Dye's designs at Kohler were the first that really opened my eyes to the use of diagonals on the 2nd shots for Par fives, requiring much more thought than simply "let's see how close we can get to the green."

[David_Elvins]

255 yard par 3 with a full carry over water from the back tee on number 6?  

Yeah, good point although the carry to the pin was so ridiculous for me that I didn't even contemplate it.  With that in mind, if I could aim right of the pin and carry it 200 yards I had about a 50 yard wide fairway to aim at with a minimum carry of 165 yards to get over the water.  There is danger but the bailout area is significant.


In contrast, 13 only plays 30 yards  shorter (220 yds from the back) but the small green and trouble right makes bailing out seriously risky.  

[Ken Fry]

People complaining about the extraneous bunkering at Whistling Straits is one item that always gets me going. Why do you care if there's a bunker in the distance that may not be in play?  They created a sandy landscape and then routed a course through it.  Imagine how unnatural a piece of property that large would look if the only sand you saw was near the 18 playing corridors.  They went all in in creating a faux landscape and it works.

But I'll put it in terms that some here may understand, given the love for Pinehurst #2.  Should every inch of sand that doesn't come into play at Pinehurst #2 be replaced with something else?  Is that bunkering overkill? I realize that's the natural landscape at Pinehurst, but that's essentially the same effect they were going for at Whistling Straits.  Instead of obsessing about the 2,500+ bunker count, think of it like Pinehurst as being one big sandy area with some green sprinkled among it.

Many thought Pinehurst looked unnatural with seas of green broken up by a few bunkers near the playing corridors.  But that's essentially what Whistling Straits would feel like if they removed the "extra" bunkers that don't come into play.

End rant. 

Kevin,

You're argument works if the course was put in and around a corn field or the remnants of a Navy firing range.  Pinehurst is built on sand.  One looks natural because it is.  One doesn't because it's not.  You can't compare the two.

Your opinion states, "They went all in in creating a faux landscape and it works."  I disagree.  It doesn't work.  It's overkill.  That's my opinion.  Just like a Midwest golf course putting Best sand in their traps.  Bright white sand in this part of the country doesn't look right to me.  Dune grass waving in the wind without the view of extraneous bunkering is what I'd rather see.

You state:  "They created a sandy landscape and then routed a course through it."  No they didn't.  Walk off the fairways and through some of the long grass.  That ain't sand under there.  Check the breaks between holes moving toward the shore line.  Not much sand there either.

I'm more curious what Dye will do differently south of Whistling Straits if that project ever gets approval.

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

I've had a chance to play most of Pete Dye's best work over the past ten years or so, and am only rarely disappointed. I can see the argument that his courses are not fun for every high handicapper, but for the better player or those that enjoy the heroic challenge his courses present, I think there is a lot to like. I enjoy the dramatic look of his courses, even when it clearly doesn't look natural.

As far as individual courses, Pete Dye GC is my favorite, but The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run River, and TPC Sawgrass all make my top twenty. I'm with Ken in thinking that Whistling Straits is a bit over the top, but other than #5 and #18 I think there is a lot to like there. The Honors, Oak Tree, and Long Cove are really good too. PGA West is a good course given the difficulty mandate and the lack of ground to work with, but I wouldn't put it up with Dye's best. As others have mentioned, LaQuinta Mountain might be more fun for regular play. Places like The Fort and Mystic Hills are not as well known, but are still very good golf.

The one I didn't really get was French Lick. The views are awesome, but the holes are really strange. Narrow fairways with lots of weird bunkering and odd shaping.

[Kevin Lynch]

People complaining about the extraneous bunkering at Whistling Straits is one item that always gets me going. Why do you care if there's a bunker in the distance that may not be in play?  They created a sandy landscape and then routed a course through it.  Imagine how unnatural a piece of property that large would look if the only sand you saw was near the 18 playing corridors.  They went all in in creating a faux landscape and it works.

But I'll put it in terms that some here may understand, given the love for Pinehurst #2.  Should every inch of sand that doesn't come into play at Pinehurst #2 be replaced with something else?  Is that bunkering overkill? I realize that's the natural landscape at Pinehurst, but that's essentially the same effect they were going for at Whistling Straits.  Instead of obsessing about the 2,500+ bunker count, think of it like Pinehurst as being one big sandy area with some green sprinkled among it.

Many thought Pinehurst looked unnatural with seas of green broken up by a few bunkers near the playing corridors.  But that's essentially what Whistling Straits would feel like if they removed the "extra" bunkers that don't come into play.

End rant. 

Kevin,

You're argument works if the course was put in and around a corn field or the remnants of a Navy firing range.  Pinehurst is built on sand.  One looks natural because it is.  One doesn't because it's not.  You can't compare the two.

Your opinion states, "They went all in in creating a faux landscape and it works."  I disagree.  It doesn't work.  It's overkill.  That's my opinion.  Just like a Midwest golf course putting Best sand in their traps.  Bright white sand in this part of the country doesn't look right to me.  Dune grass waving in the wind without the view of extraneous bunkering is what I'd rather see.

You state:  "They created a sandy landscape and then routed a course through it."  No they didn't.  Walk off the fairways and through some of the long grass.  That ain't sand under there.  Check the breaks between holes moving toward the shore line.  Not much sand there either.

I'm more curious what Dye will do differently south of Whistling Straits if that project ever gets approval.

Ken

Hey Ken,

To me,  it seems  like "unnatural" vs "overkill" are two separate issues - but they get muddled together.  Of course it's not going to be as natural looking as Pinehurst - it was an air force base.  But they wanted to create a feeling of a dunes landscape, and I don't think that would be accomplished if the only bunkers were located near greens or flanking drive zones.  Is it a perfect replication? Of course not, but I still think the "extraneous" bunkering was necessary to create the feeling they were going for.

I think some people just don't like the fact that the landscape had to be created, but that's separate from the question of excess.

I suppose the dunes grass in between holes may have been another way to create a feel, but that's an aesthetic matter of preference vs overkill.  I'm not sure why out-of-play bunkers are deemed overkill while out-of-play dunes grass is fine. It's out of play, so does it matter which feature they use to create a sense of consistency between the in-play and out-of-play areas?


As for Dye's new project, he could go any direction.  If he showed anything in his work at Kohler, it's that he can create a wide variety of feels.

[Nick Spears]

I for one love Dye courses. I love all golf courses for that matter, but I like the challenge. If he doesn't give you more than one option on a hole so be it. Force me to hit that one shot. I'm in the 1% when I say I like 18 at The Straits. Now, that being said I hate #5. He seems to fit those holes in to his courses, #17 on the Irish course. #16 at French Lick. Ponds that don't fit in with the rest of the surroundings. I've played all 4 at Kohler, both at Sawgrass, French Lick, and I'm heading to Kiawah for the first time this Friday. Don't see why I won't fall in love with another Dye!

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