BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Jason Thurman]

It's not so much that I think the short porch is easy to hit. It's more that I don't find it any more difficult to hit than the left side of the fairway. I'm a much more consistent player with a long iron than I am with a driver - for example, there's a 220-230 yard par 3 at my home course that I hit in regulation during 11 consecutive rounds this year. For my game, I'll almost always fire at the target that I'm going to hit 80% of the time as opposed to the target that I might hit 50-60% of the time, especially when the 80% target leaves a shorter second shot and relatively high probability of birdie.

I'll eventually miss the porch and have to scramble, but I'll have the same issue eventually if I go left with the driver as well. The long term percentages are just better from the short porch, and the short term reward of a potential eagle or birdie is higher as well. To me, a true risk/reward hole needs a safe option that may produce a lower average score over 100 plays, along with a higher-variance option that may produce the lowest score on a single play. To me, 15 is hampered slightly by the fact that the short porch is likely both the best play over 100 rounds and also over a single play.

It's certainly fun to play though, and maybe that's all that really matters.

[Chris DeNigris]

Hole 17:
To get back to some other themes about BH .... walking.  the walk from 16 green up and around to 17 tee is a formidable hike.  the walk from 17 tee to 17 green is also.  If I were walking and carrying, at this point in the round, the walk from 16 green to 17 green would take quite a lot out of me.  and my golf as well as my experience would probably suffer.

Tommy has consistently made accurate descriptions of this hole and all the rest.  The right back quadrant is the Sunday pin.  Not a hard grren to hit, but like all greens at BH, careful approach putting is mandatory. Very striking hole.  11 green is over the hill off the right side of this green.

As Carl alludes to in his post- 17 may be one of the finest "Triple Quadrant" template holes that I've ever played.  I think Scott will back me up on this one.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I love the way Mike strange encircles par three holes with tees and I love the way mr. Keiser did it at the dunes club. Could more tees be built for this hole, to take advantage of even more angles?

There could be a tee further to the right but it would sit below the green giving a partial blind shot.  Not sure what would be gained by it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I tried to represent my appreciation for this splendid hole in my painting, which can be found on this site's "Best of Golf" section.  Have a look.

Great rendering of the hole.  Love the one you did of five as well.

[Kevin Lynch]

I tried to represent my appreciation for this splendid hole in my painting, which can be found on this site's "Best of Golf" section.  Have a look.

Great rendering of the hole.  Love the one you did of five as well.

+1

[Kevin Lynch]

Aerial:



Here's an older aerial which better captures the "three quadrants" referred to by Chris. 



The tiers aren't as severe as other holes like 9 or 14 and you can die putts at the crest and have them stop in a reasonable time.  My favorite putt is from the upper right tier to the lower left. 

[Jason Thurman]

Take yourself back in time to the days when people first started whacking balls with sticks. I imagine it was an informal exercise, with no clear teeing grounds or pins to play to, but I still like to think that a man would challenge his opponent to reach different targets in the fewest number of hits.

It's not hard to imagine two friends finding themselves standing at the edge of a ravine and challenging each other to cross it. Holes like the 17th at Ballyhack have a timeless appeal rooted in the game's origins. Watching a ball sail from one finger of land to another over a ravine is one of the game's simplest joys, and one that I don't think ever diminishes no matter how skilled a player you are.

Ballyhack needs a hole like the 17th, and the fact that it comes at this point in the round makes it even more effective. The obvious penalty for a disastrous swing adds a little extra tension and the joy of watching a well-struck shot fly true is amplified by the hole's terrain. This is one of the highlights of the course for me.

[Tommy Williamsen]

#18 par four-- 455, 428, 401, 362, 318

Par on 18 is a good score.  So many things can go wrong.  The fairway from the tee looks miles wide.  Looks can be deceiving.  The one lone tree stands sentry.  Guarding the green from any ball that dares to venture to the right side of the fairway.  Anything that dares to go to far left is on the hill or in pretty thick blue grass.  The second shot is more uphill than it appears.  Beyond that the green is long, really long.  I’m not sure how long but I thing it must be thirty to forty yards long.  Lester and Wade will know the exact yardage.  The green is not only long it has wild slopes and undulations.  Hitting the green isn’t the problem.  Two putting can be difficult.  I have seen more four putts on this green than any other on the course.

This view from the twelfth tee displays the entire hole.


From the tee the tree on the right looms large.  


It is easy to protect too much and go left.
I try to aim at the tree and turn it over a bit.  The fairway lists a little from right to left so anything moving that direction will find the middle of the fairway. From behind the tree you need to hit a low running cut with the ball a little above your feet.


Looking back from the landing area.  It is downhill tee shot and an uphill second shot.


This back right pin placement is a least two clubs different than a front pin.


A little valley meanders through the entire length of the green.




Goats going home from a long day’s work.


Sunset from the back of eighteen.


The more I play Ballyhack the more I want to play it.  I have played 36 rounds there this year.  When I go I stay in a cottage, eat at the club and never move my car.  Friends that I bring can’t wait to return.  You don’t play and say, “This reminds me of....”  It is unique, fun, and will test anyone’s game.  The staff are great and the food is superb.  

[Carl Rogers]

Tommy, thanks for doing the hole by hole.  With a larger field at the George Cup this year,  I was hoping for more BH visibility on the site.  As usual an accurate description.  With your local knowledge and many many plays, I think you are  lock on the George Cup for as long as you want to show up.

Hole 18: My experience is that the fairway plays narrower than it looks (again IMO similar to many BH tee shots).  The approach shot plays at least 1.5 clubs more than you think.  The bunkers on this hole are less severe than on other holes.

Every time I play 18, I am always amazed by the size, scale & movement of the green.  Hard to describe.

[Andy Hughes]

Am I really the only one who finds the Short Porch kinda tough to hit, especially when there is some breeze (and is there ever NOT a breeze or more?), and then the fun really begins from the junk just off the fairway left.

Andy-fess up- You just like mashing driver across the ravine on 15.

I find it a bit more of an awkward shot than a tough one.  If it was purely about the "smart play" it would probably be smartest to develop a comfort zone for that iron/hybrid stroke and play from the porch in most cases. For me though, I stubbornly hate to hit anything but driver on a par 5- so I almost always go left.  There are actually a couple of extremely sweet places for drives to settle on that part of the fairway (one is near a drainage grate in a small flat area), which reward the player with almost as easy (if not easier, due to the lie) chance to get home in two as does the porch.  Especially if you like to draw your 3 metal- which the tree can sometimes mess with if playing from the porch.

Another note about the left side and the layup if one isn't in perfect go for it position- there is a lot more fairway towards the lay-up zone than meets the eye.  That bit of semi-blindness makes the layup a little more nervy in an attempt to get it as close as possible without dropping off into the abyss.

Just another great BH par 5- 3 of the most unique and fun par 5s on one course that I can think of.

lol!
Chris, you're right!  I really do enjoy trying to whack driver on this hole. (though I have to admit being a bit intimidated trying to hit something to the end of the short porch--I have missed a few yards left just often enough to be fearful). In fact, I enjoy hitting driver more on Ballyhack than any other course I can think offhand. There are a number of holes where its flat out fun/exhilarating to use driver or where I give way more thought to what I want to do with my driver (or not do, such as hit a draw on 8 or a fade on 12) than I ordinarily do.
Just a fun driving course
And now Tommy has me wondering about hitting driver on 14 from the up/left tee......

[Jon Cavalier]

Fantastic tour.

I somehow ended up on the back fringe of 18 despite a front pin. I think the putt I hit from there moved 15 feet in both directions before settling, and I'd guess the ball was moving for 20 seconds or more. First time I ever felt good about a three putt.

[Kevin Lynch]

Here's the 18th from above:



While the fairway is roughly 40 yards wide in the 150-200 yard range, you can see that the effective width is much narrower due to the imposition of the tree (black line represents impact of tree line).  However, this isn't an "absolute" narrowing, because the green is so large and you can shoot for the front left corner or slice the ball back to any right side pin.   Also, if you are close to the tree (inside 150 yards or so), it is always feasible to hit a low chaser under the branches given the normal firm conditions and open front.

The red line represents the alternate route I proposed to my team during my initial George Cup Shamble (and used by the Pro's team).  With a back right pin, I'd call that "Position A." 

At times over the years, I have found the depth of the rough along the right side to be a bit much (and redundant given the tree), but that has been maintained lower in recent visits (perhaps due to the lessened need for erosion control).  Once erosion is less of a concern, I'd love to see short grass all along the right side and allow for more opportunities to shape balls under or around the specimen tree.  However, I suppose that temptation may put the corner of the clubhouse in danger if people don't execute their planned hooks.


 

[Kevin Lynch]

I somehow ended up on the back fringe of 18 despite a front pin. I think the putt I hit from there moved 15 feet in both directions before settling, and I'd guess the ball was moving for 20 seconds or more. First time I ever felt good about a three putt.

Following up on Tommy's query, this green plays as big as 66 x 42 yards in some spots, so a putt from the dead center of the green can still require a mighty whack.  It's not unusual to see a pin sheet with "+24" written on it.

This green is the site of the George Cup Midnight Putting Contest, and you can see why.  Several carts are parked around the green and flashlights / iPhone lights are used to illuminate the pin.  To keep from walking back & forth too much, a wine bottle usually serves as a target for every other round.

But the Midnight Contest may be a curse, like the Par 3 Contest during the Masters.  The MPC was more informal in years past, but added some structure in 2014.  The 2014 Midnight Putting Contest was captured by Jason Williams (2011 GC Champion), but J-Will then proceeded to finish dead last in the official 2014 George Cup event.   

[Thomas Dai]

This has been an excellent photo tour. Posting tours takes quite a bit of time and effort so posting one with this high level of detail is very commendable. Well done to all involved. More courses with goats (and sheep) to assist with the maintenace would be nice
atb

[Chris DeToro]

The goats are a great touch.  Those were some great photos and a great tour in general.  Ballyhack looks like a great challenge on a beautiful piece of land.

[Jamey Bryan]

A truly great hole by hole.  Thanks for all your work, Tommy and Wade!

I’ve deliberately avoided posting in the middle of this thread, preferring to wait to the end and simply add a couple of “big picture” comments.

It seems that there has been a recurring theme of “unrecoverable” position complaints.  I strongly disagree.  Ballyhack is difficult, yes.  The terrain is severe, yes.  However the fairways are enormous as, generally, are the greens, and I can’t think of a single place on the course where (assuming you find your ball) recovery for a bogy is not a fairly simple matter.

I LOVE the mental aspect of golf.  No other sport or game combines the mental discipline required with the physical execution.  Ballyhack presents a rigorous test of both on virtually every shot.  Tommy, Wade, and Kevin each alluded to this early in the thread:

(Tommy)
For me the challenge is to keep my head for 18 holes.  When I do, I can score well.  When I overreach I score poorly.

(Wade)
From the first through the eighteenth, Ballyhack requires an aggressive swing at a conservative target.

Get this backwards and the golf course will punish you.

(Kevin)
Put another way, the individual shot demands are not unreasonable, but loose swings get punished and can tend to compound.

What I’ve found is that the course is big and brawny enough that:

1)   The fairways are huge and, played conservatively, almost impossible to miss completely.  However,
2)   Invariably there is significant advantage to playing to a particular portion of the fairway.

Attempts to gain that advantage which are poorly executed will often be punished with a poor stance, lie, or angle to the green.  Poorly executed aggressive shots from these less than ideal positions may well result in an unrecoverable position.

Recovery from a loose swing, then, is simply to play a recovery shot to good position, then attempt to get up and down.  Except for truly horrible shots, generally Ballyhack penalizes the first loose swing moderately, then imposes a severe penalty on the second (which was combined generally with a poor decision).  That, in my view, should be an architect’s objective.

I truly love Ballyhack.  The course is both beautiful and a blast to play, the club facilities are perfect for the golfer seeking a few days of great golf, fellowship, and good food, and the staff is exceedingly gracious.

Jamey

[Morgan Clawson]

Yes, a very solid and detailed photo tour.  Well done!

I played Ballyhack during the Dixie Cup a few years back.  A few thoughts:

1) The staff and architect couldn't have been more welcoming.  These guys LOVE their course and it shows.
2) Playing the right tees is important. Some of the carries on the tee shots and the approach shots are very long.
3) There are a lot of options and different ways to play many of the holes and that makes it fun.
4) It looks from these photos that the native grass has been cut-down considerably in spots.   This is a welcome improvement.  I had several instances where my ball was lost just a few feet from the fairway and rough. Being able to find these balls would be a welcome relief.
5) The greens have plenty of movement, and are a blast to putt.  The double green is spectacular.

[Kevin Lynch]

It seems that there has been a recurring theme of “unrecoverable” position complaints.  I strongly disagree.  Ballyhack is difficult, yes.  The terrain is severe, yes.  However the fairways are enormous as, generally, are the greens, and I can’t think of a single place on the course where (assuming you find your ball)[/i] recovery for a bogy is not a fairly simple matter.

The emphasized part of that sentence is really the main source of concern for me.  I don't mind if you give me a 20 degree sidehill lie in 3-4 inches of rough - that at least gives me something to try (or accept my punishment).  Like you said, the terrain is severe and the bunkers are difficult, too, which is part of the reason that some of the lost ball rough seems redundant or unnecessary (unless needed for erosion control).   

And if it's in a bad enough position that I can't recover, that's fine too.  I just want to do something other than search for a ball for 3-5 minutes and then do the walk of shame or drop a ball & treat it like a hazard (for example, the  approx. 200 balls found in the 10 feet around the fairway bunker on #5).

However, as others have noted, the native areas have been tamed in the last year, and I hope that trend continues.  I was a little spoiled in that I saw the course very early in 2010, before these nasty areas had grown in their full set of teeth.  For example, I hit into the chasm on #15 on my first visit, and was still able to take a swing for a layup shot.  It wasn't easy and still held the potential for a compounding error, but it wasn't an automatic result.

But regardless of my varying degrees of concern over that issue, the one thing that never fluctuates is my love for the design and variety of holes Lester created. 

I place upper echelon courses into two categories -  those I "see" and those I "feel."  The ones that deeply touch my "golf soul" are special, and Ballyhack is one of them.  I know that every time I cross Pitzer Road, I can literally “breathe in” the course and still get goosebumps.  So even after we spend 13 pages discussing strategy, shot values, contouring and all the other “characteristics” that we use in our attempt to judge a course - the ultimate final question for me is “does it inspire you?” 

On that count, Ballyhack is a resounding "yes."

[Tommy Williamsen]

Many thanks to all who participated on this photo tour, and especially to Kevin Lynch, last year's George Cup holder, for providing the aerial views.  Now if Jon Cavalier can teach me to take photos like his it would even be more fun.

I thought I would post some pictures of the clubhouse, cabins, and just some images from around the course.

The clubhouse is comfortable and large enough for the small membership.    

There are three identical four bedroom cabins.      

View of #12 behind the cabins (17 green in the distance)  

 A friend with a cigar and an adult beverage after 36 holes.


View from the clubhouse patio.  

 Ballyhack is more than the course.  It’s just a great place to hangout.

[Kevin Lynch]

Many thanks are needed for this tour.

First and foremost, thanks to Tommy for taking the lead on this and assembling the photos to facilitate our discussions.  Obviously, many people wanted to talk about the course, but someone needed to get the ball rolling, and who better than the reigning George Cup Champion.

A huge debt of gratitude is also owed to Wade Whitehead.  If not for his efforts in putting on the Saul Shootout for the last 4 years, many of us would not have the familiarity with Ballyhack to allow such in-depth discussion.  And this is on top of all the course insight he has added during the tour, as well as numerous nuggets he has imparted during the annual events (often through the Quiz).  If any of you had your interest piqued by this tour, I would strongly encourage you to sign up for the 5th Saul Shootout for the George Cup next year. 

Thanks also to Lester for taking part at various points during the discussion - there's no comparison to the insight provided by the artist.  I hope you're not done with this thread and can add even more insight before this topic falls to the realms of page 2 and beyond.  Wade dropped some hints about potential changes, and we would love to hear about any of them (as much as you can say in this forum).

Of course, thanks to everyone who took part and added (candid) insights and different perspectives to the discussions.  I know I learned quite a bit about how other golfers may look at course characteristics differently, especially the effect of uphill shots in this case.  Again, I hope you're not done with this thread yet, since I'd love to hear even more perspectives (and perhaps some macro-level summaries).  The interest in this type of detailed thread has inspired a few of us to start a similar discussion regarding Pete Dye Golf Course in the near future and I hope many of you can & will take part. 

Lastly, thanks to Jon Cavalier for his contributed photo tour to supplement this one  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59991.0.html.  Like I alluded earlier, sometimes you can talk about the details of a course, and other times you just let the beauty of it wash over you.  I think both were conveyed.

[Jon Cavalier]

Tommy - love to. Anytime. But I have to say, your photos are pretty damn fine. You've done a wonderful job of really giving is a sense of the course and perspective. This was a great tour.

Kevin - thanks for the plug.

[Matt MacIver]

As others have said, a great 18 hole photo tour, I followed all the way through which I often don't do, perhaps because because I've played the course or because the course is so good or the passion of the contributors shown through.

Overall I think the front is more "fun" golf - you never know what's around the corner or bend and you'll never have the same shot twice; the back nine is more "real" golf though not in a bad way. 

I said earlier the course didn't play hard-ish for me...well my double-Bogey round would say otherwise. So it must have been fun instead. Despite a bad round in the morning, BH is a place I couldn't wait to tee it up right away; finding solutions to its problems (some which I created, some that Lester did) would always be a pleasure.

I think golf is hard enough as it is and a sign of greatness lies in and around the greens, and these greens offer wonderful slopes and angles.  The topography lends itself for great golf - great sledding too!  Might have a chance today as this wintry mix falls on Thanksgiving Day, have a great one everyone.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks guys.  The outstanding photography, analysis, discussion, and testimonials make this the best thread of its type, ever.  The only final touch I can suggest is a diagram or aerial of the routing.  I think the essence of the course and the club has been captured.  From my standpoint, while I have hoped to return one day, it has not been a priority.  This is no longer the case.  Perhaps it is time for the DC to return in 2015, though maybe a bit earlier in the calendar.

Re: #18, Mike Clayton's linked article in Jason Topp's Australian Open thread (Mike's conversation with a pine tree) comes to mind.  While the tree guarding the right half of the fairway, an oak as I recall, is a specimen tree which has been there for many decades, it seems to dominate a hole which would be very demanding even without it.  An otherwise good drive that finds the short grass and still requires a long approach leaves the player with the choice of laying up or punching a cut shot underneath the tree with the hope of skirting the greenside bunkers left and right.

Not possessing Jamey's or Tommy's disciplined restraint, in a tight Dixie Cup match (I think it was Jason Topp, an opponent, who knocked it stiff on 17 in hard sleet for a tap-in birdie to even the match), with my partner in his pocket, I am left in the right half of the fairway with the choice of hitting a sand wedge into position over the tree or punch something under it from 195 yards out.  I opted for the latter, got in a bad lie in the front right bunker, hit it thin way over the green into an impossible lie in "the natives", and took four from there for a 7 to lose the hole and the match to a double bogie.  Perhaps my opponents found some charm in the possibilities offered by the hole.  Me, I am of Mr. Clayton's mindset that the tree has a much higher use as furniture than it does as a vertical hazard in the immediate line of play on the golf course.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.      

[Kevin Lynch]

The only final touch I can suggest is a diagram or aerial of the routing.  I think the essence of the course and the club has been captured.

I added one around hole #5, but if someone joined in late, they wouldn't see it.  I'll edit one of my comments from the first page and add it in for future reference.  Also, I only started the aerial hole maps on #4, so I may go back and add #1-3 as well.

Re: #18, Mike Clayton's linked article in Jason Topp's Australian Open thread (Mike's conversation with a pine tree) comes to mind.  While the tree guarding the right half of the fairway, an oak as I recall, is a specimen tree which has been there for many decades, it seems to dominate a hole which would be very demanding even without it.  An otherwise good drive that finds the short grass and still requires a long approach leaves the player with the choice of laying up or punching a cut shot underneath the tree with the hope of skirting the greenside bunkers left and right.

Not possessing Jamey's or Tommy's disciplined restraint, in a tight Dixie Cup match (I think it was Jason Topp, an opponent, who knocked it stiff on 17 in hard sleet for a tap-in birdie to even the match), with my partner in his pocket, I am left in the right half of the fairway with the choice of hitting a sand wedge into position over the tree or punch something under it from 195 yards out.  I opted for the latter, got in a bad lie in the front right bunker, hit it thin way over the green into an impossible lie in "the natives", and took four from there for a 7 to lose the hole and the match to a double bogie.  Perhaps my opponents found some charm in the possibilities offered by the hole.  Me, I am of Mr. Clayton's mindset that the tree has a much higher use as furniture than it does as a vertical hazard in the immediate line of play on the golf course.    

If every hole were dominated by tree considerations, I may feel differently about the specimen on #18, but I think it's OK to have a more demanding tee shot on the 18th hole, especially given the size of the green.  The 18th may be the tightest driving hole, even though it looks very large.  It's counterintuitive, but it's an easier shot for me if I'm further away, since I can more reliably cut a longer club.  Laying back to 180-200 (where the fairway is widest) may be better than trying to get near the tree.

However, because the tree does dominate the hole, I think there could be some offset in the set-up of the rough.  I know some guys even kicked around the idea of maintaining the grass along the right hillside very short to see if people may play long running shots to the right of the tree and have them deflect back towards the green.

[Thomas Dai]

A course I play quite regularly has a tree not dissimilar to the one on the 18th at Ballyhack. Some would like the tree to remain but for several of the more significant lower branches to be removed and for the grass underneith and to the sides cut to be mowed at fairway height thus permitting various different kinds of low trajectory 'under-the-tree' or swerve shots to be played.
atb