BALLYHACK GC hole by hole (new ninth hole see reply 345)

[Kevin Lynch]

Also - worthy of note, Kevin won the 2013 George Cup. He's not one to mention that unprompted, so wanted to make sure that was noted.

That last line is funny!!!  But I'm out of the "Excessively Proud Defending Champion" persona now and happily handed that persona off to Tommy.  

I am humbled by my demolition of the field. The George Cup is never far from my side.

I'd like to see some photographic evidence of the Cup's omnipresence.  But I understand that, as a former pastor, you need to be wary of that Idolatry Commandment.

[Matt MacIver]

Great thread am enjoying it. As an 18 HC I can say I didn't think the course was overtly hard, maybe because all the fun shots made me forget the pain. I'm also a fan of rolling greens with massive breaks and BH has that in spades. I think the par 5s are its strength, which is saying something.

[Kevin Lynch]

Great thread am enjoying it. As an 18 HC I can say I didn't think the course was overtly hard, maybe because all the fun shots made me forget the pain. I'm also a fan of rolling greens with massive breaks and BH has that in spades. I think the par 5s are its strength, which is saying something.

Matt -

Please keep adding your thoughts throughout.  Many would be interested to hear the perspective of an 18 Handicap for this course.

What was your favorite Par 5? 

[Chris DeNigris]

I think 11 suffers in the same way that Sandra Bullock suffers in the same group as Giselle Bundchen, Kate Upton and Sofia Vergara. There’s a lot to like about the hole but admittedly it would probably rank near the bottom if I had to rank all the par 4s.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think 11 suffers in the same way that Sandra Bullock suffers in the same group as Giselle Bundchen, Kate Upton and Sofia Vergara. There’s a lot to like about the hole but admittedly it would probably rank near the bottom if I had to rank all the par 4s.

Wade and Lester, obviously know the early history better than I do.  It seems to me that former employee Van told me that initially eleven was considered to be a par three.  I can see how that could have happened.  Hopefully they can elaborate on that.

[Chris DeNigris]

I think 11 suffers in the same way that Sandra Bullock suffers in the same group as Giselle Bundchen, Kate Upton and Sofia Vergara. There’s a lot to like about the hole but admittedly it would probably rank near the bottom if I had to rank all the par 4s.

Wade and Lester, obviously know the early history better than I do.  It seems to me that former employee Van told me that initially eleven was considered to be a par three.  I can see how that could have happened.  Hopefully they can elaborate on that.

Using make-believe design and construction skills- With the current greensite and tees ranging from 150 to 220 yards you could see how it might  be a cool par three as long as it wasn't too uphill a shot. Almost a redan-like quality with the short right kickboard and slope of the green. Can't recall if the ridge to the right of 10 green could be used for tees, distance-wise- but I think it would a more compelling 3 than what it is currently.  Of course probably a completely unrealistic option 

[Jonathan Mallard]

And as promised / threatened, more discussion on the course, and the statistics from the 2014 State Open...

#10. Might just be the best par 5 on the course. A big, wide, long landing area for a downhill tee shot. As the second shot generally plays fast and firm, IMO, it is the most tempting shot on the course. Do you play for a chaser through a speed slot of ample width, or lay back to a wedge to another decent sized target? Disaster lurks right and left if the player does not execute the shot.

#11. As Wade notes, this hole ends a run of holes that can be had. The landing area for the drive is ample enough, and yes, the right side is preferred, not only for the lie that tends to be more level, but the angle is much more down the green vs the shallow angle across you'll tend to have from the left. This hole has generated the most variety in opinions so far. More on that in a minute.

As I mentioned earlier, I have continued to dig through the state open data. One more item of note is that number 11 had the highest standard deviation (sigma) of all the holes on the course at 1.046 strokes. While what this means is open to discussion, I would submit that holes that have higher standard deviations will generally be considered more controversial due to the wider dispersion of the scores on the hole. A point that seems reflected in the comments so far.

10 had the 12th highest sigma, while 9 was third (0.9924 strokes). More on the par 5's when we get to #15.

Of special note is that 3 is the sigma outlier for the par 3's. It checks in at 6th highest with 0.9446 strokes. I think that for the 3rd hole, while we can state the facts for this tournament, we should gather more data relative to the tees that were played to be more careful when drawing conclusions. E.G. I think that tee box choice can have a greater effect on scores for the 3rd hole vs the 11th hole.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Many guys who played in the state open never had played a practice round and teed it up cold.  That is a pretty dumb thing to do at any course but at Ballyhack it is really inexcusable.  As for number eleven, I think one guy made an eleven or twelve.  It had to be a "Tin Cup" episode.  
As I have mentioned before I play the course two different ways. One is to try and make a score.  Ballyhack demands that you stay in the moment as much as any course I have played. The first time I played Pine Valley I shot 78 but was so mentally exhausted I needed a nap.  Ballyhack requires that kind of concentration.  The other way is to change around tees and just go for broke and play 18 different games.  It is a ball. Golf is one of those games where you can have games within a game.

[Jonathan Mallard]

I included a 12 on 11. It should also be noted that this hole had the highest absolute number of others (17) recorded in the tournament. 4 was second with 16.

An additional anomaly is that there are 2 more 'rounds' included on the front vs the back in the scores. 349 to 347. I'm going to guess that that will not materially affect the data.

[Wade Whitehead]

In the 2014 Virginia State Open, #11 was played from the back tee all three days.  Both sides of the hole were marked with red paint, which makes the 12 scored by one competitor even more remarkable.  This isn't the place to really get into it, but the near total lack of appreciation for the layout's elasticity by the tournament committee was a disappointment to say the least.

Typically, a field like that hits balls for an hour or two after a round.  After play during the State Open, the range was a ghost town.  Why?  Players were absolutely exhausted (to Tommy's point).  The mental tax of every shot was just too unfamiliar.  Of course, we were playing a setup that yielded an 80+ scoring average for the first two days of the event.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Jonathan: I know at least one player (a former VA Open champion) withdrew after completing the front nine.  He was on the twelfth hole when his back went out.

WW

[Jonathan Mallard]

In the 2014 Virginia State Open, #11 was played from the back tee all three days.  Both sides of the hole were marked with red paint, which makes the 12 scored by one competitor even more remarkable.  This isn't the place to really get into it, but the near total appreciation for the layout's elasticity by the tournament committee was a disappointment to say the least.


WW

Wade: Do you mean lack of appreciation?

I noted the proximity of the red hazard line left of number 8. Literally 3 steps from the edge of the fairway. That couldn't have helped the scoring or pace of play.

[Kevin Lynch]

I noted the proximity of the red hazard line left of number 8. Literally 3 steps from the edge of the fairway. That couldn't have helped the scoring or pace of play.

Actually. I would have thought the opposite.  That line was a gift to the players who bombed through the fairway and would have a very easy drop (vs. lost ball re-tee or unplayable lie).  If you could find your ball, you didn't have to take the stroke - you just couldn't ground your club. 

[Kevin Lynch]

Tommy -

That's stunning to hear.  I couldn't imagine playing Ballyhack blind while caring about a score. 

As for other scoring anomalies from the VA Open, perhaps Wade can enlighten us (if he recalls):

- Hole 4 - Played as the #10 hole in Rd 3 (vs. #1/#4 in Rds 1/2).  Was the ease due to pin position (front left?) or wind conditions?

- Hole 5 - Played 2nd toughest in Rd 3 (vs. #12 in Rd 1).  Was that the nasty upper right pin or the wind?

- Hole 11 - Fluctuated from 3rd toughest in Rd 2 to #14 in Rd 3.  That's a remarkable change if the tees were the same.  Perhaps it took guys 3 rounds to figure it out.

I think many don't realize how much more of a backstop the right side of the fairway is vs the left.  The bunker may scare them, but any slice seems to stop quickly while hooks run out quite a bit.  I imagine many were led into aiming more left than necessary.

[Wade Whitehead]

Jonathan: Yes!  I meant "near total lack of appreciation."  Thanks for catching that.

The hazard lines sped up play.  They were everywhere (including just left of eight).

Kevin: I didn't play on the third day (cut to low 60) but a number of tees were moved up.  The scoring average on the third day only reflects numbers posted by the guys who were playing really well.  The first two days featured high pins across the property; in fact, the committee set up a high pin on #14 all three rounds!

WW

[Tommy Williamsen]

#12 par four—462,427,400,367

I have to admit that twelve is not a favorite of mine.  There are essentially two ways to hit the tee shot.  Actually there are more than that.  My buddy last week decided to slice his tee ball onto the 18th fairway.  It was an interesting strategy to make triple.  Other than that you can hit a tee ball to the widest part of the fairway that is about level with the green.  The problem is that it is 190 yards or so from the green.  The other way is to hit a tee ball down the right side of the fairway and let it roll down the hill, which leaves about a 100 yard shot to a blind green.  I’d rather have the 190 yards.  I know that seems odd but I tend to get closer to the pin from back there.  The green angles a bit from front right to back left.  The front right side of the green has an unpleasant little gathering pot bunker.  It doesn’t get a lot of play, but when the pin is front right you are always aware of its presence.  Not long ago I was short of the bunker and had a nasty little flop shot off a tight lie.

The best line for the tee shot is down the right side.  A well hit shot will bound down the hill to about 100 yards.  Hit it strong too far left and you have a downhill shot from some grizzly rough.


View looking back.  Tee is on the left side of the picture.  Seventeen green is in the distance.


Hit it a little left off the tee and you find this bunker.  As bunkers go it is pretty playable.


Views of the hole from the right side.


Good view of how the hole sets up.  I like to hit my tee ball to that little shelf before it drops off.


If you do hit it down the hill you have a flat lie.



View of the green from the left side of the fairway, about 190 out.


A little different angle.  


If you do hit it down to the bottom of the fairway, this is your shot.


A gathering pot bunker on the front right of the green. Even when the ball does not land in the bunker it affects the shot to the green when the pin is up front.


Looking back from up near the green.



 
Clubhouse from the fairway.


Grounds crew working near the cabins.


From behind the green.  You can see the entire hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

Been too long. When I played, the clubhouse did not exist and I had forgotten this hole completely.

whooo.

[Wade Whitehead]

Twelve is my favorite par four on the golf course.

Picking a line from the tee is very difficult.  Lester's expert use of the line of charm causes so many players to hit the ball left (since the pin is in full view from every teebox).  From the tee, the green is 60 or 70 yards left of the best play.

A well-struck drive will find a speed slot, which leaves either a ~140 shot (fairly level with the green) or a ~100 yard shot (uphill to a semi- or fully-blind pin (depending location).  The front right greenside bunker (or "the hemorrhoid," as I call it) provides the only frame of reference from the bottom section of the fairway.  It's surrounded by short grass and collects any ball hit near it.

Like a few others (#4, #7, #16), the back of the twelfth green slopes away from the player.  This makes a back pin very interesting.

The hole is very exposed and plays into the prevailing wind.  It's the first of the "figure eight" holes on the back, which will require the player to deal with every conceivable wind direction over an hour of play.

WW

[Brad Hill]

I can appreciate how twelve provides distinctly different playing options. The variability of playability always provides room for second guessing and doubt in the players mind. Being committed to decisions on shots, pulling them off or not, adds substance to the round. I like that.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Twelve is my favorite par four on the golf course.

WW

Wade, really interesting what folks like.  I find the tee shot to be very awkward for me.  I never seem to get comfortable with it.  That's why I would rather just hit something that stays up top and hit a hybrid into the green.  When the pin is up front, however, it is a more difficult shot to get close.

[Kevin Lynch]

Here is the aerial for #12:



I think Tommy may have been oversimplifying the options, as I've played many shots from yardages between 100 or 190. All drives will kick to the left, but if you carry far enough, you'll get a forward projection before rolling leftward down the hill to the 100 yard range.  

I love this hole, and I always have a soft spot for "over the rise" tee shots.  This one is special, because as Wade noted, the landing area is blind, but the ultimate destination is not (similar to #4).  

I've seen the fairway past the left bunker change several times over the years.  My first visit, I played just over the edge of the bunkers and was in the fairway.  The next time I played, I ended up in some heavy rough along the same line.  The above aerial was from 2012, but I used a 2011 aerial to sketch in the fairway line (in red) that existed that season.  From this past George Cup, I had the sense that there was a little more fairway than in prior years.  Wade / Tommy - did you notice the same or is it just my imagination?

The last George Cup clearly demonstrated the variable impact of the wind.  From the 400 yards tees, I hit a solid drive on Friday and left myself 100 yards and a wedge.  On Sunday, I hit a better drive from the same tees, but ended up 150 out and had to try a knockdown 4-iron.  You'll never be bored upon repeat plays at Ballyhack.

[Kevin Lynch]

Been too long. When I played, the clubhouse did not exist and I had forgotten this hole completely.

whooo.

I love you like a brother, but that last part stuns me.  Next time we play a hole this special together, I may need to take your camera away for a few minutes.

But, you did get a nice picture of the tee shot:



It also shows how Tommy's buddy could have found the 18th fairway.  I've done the opposite (found 12 fairway from the 18th tee) and still wish I'd tried the heroic recovery over the cabins.  But we'll analyze that later.

[Ronald Montesano]

I believe that Mr. Lynch was hopeful that this lost gem might one day be found. The "hand in the pocket before ball leaves tee" was never in more evidence than on the 11th at Ballyhack.

http://youtu.be/t4-XQua67gw

[Jim Sherma]

Wade et al - I knew my wording re #11 would elicit a response and I am not surprised it got as much play as it did. I do not feel that the 11th is in any way a bad or inappropriate hole. I do think it is an awkward and, for me at least as a below average wedge player, a difficult hole. Lester himself evidently admitted that it was a difficult hole to create and if it fell naturally on the land that would not likely be the case. I think the double green option from the earlier routing would add more character but would not in and of itself change the basic fact that it is essentially a connector hole in my opinion. The 10th and 12th are awesome hols that make the 11th a fully acceptable part of the routing and a pretty good hole given the land. Of all the holes on the course though this is the one that appears, to my eye at least, to be the one most required to make the routing work as opposed to being built based on its own merits.

Jim: Another thought about #11.  Have you seen the earlier routing the connected the 11th and 17th greens as a double putting surface?  I had it at the George Cup this year (and it was, as I'm sure you recall, a Quiz question).

I wonder how that eleventh would have compared in your mind.

In any event, I look forward to playing the hole with you when you visit over the coming year.

WW

[Tim Pitner]

Great thread am enjoying it. As an 18 HC I can say I didn't think the course was overtly hard, maybe because all the fun shots made me forget the pain. I'm also a fan of rolling greens with massive breaks and BH has that in spades. I think the par 5s are its strength, which is saying something.

I think you're on to something here.  One of the reasons BH is so enjoyable is that some of its most difficult holes, like #4 and #12, are also the most fun to play.  It's never a grind.  #12 is a great hole--the birdie that Chris DeNigris and I made there in foursomes on Sunday is one of my favorite memories from the George Cup weekend.